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Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

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Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#71
Whatever you’ll do for work, you always end up working for someone. A boss, clients, customers...

Being a freelancer ? Your clients will be the one you’ll work for. And as some others said: they’ll make money on your work.

Being an employee ? That’s your case, you know how it works.

So entrepreneur ? You say you’re not comfortable with it. And at the end, you’ll have to please your customers or else you will otherwise not earn enough money.

So I guess you have to choose the less hurting path for you.

The good point is that if you want to change your situation, you can start doing it without leaving your current job and see if it leads somewhere before making a drastically decision which will impact your life.

Try a side project, or several. Start looking for what exists in freelancing on your domain of expertise.

The first step is always the toughest one. You’ve got a paid job.

Try!

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#72
You mention a couple times that your work has a significant impact on the company's sales/revenue. If you can actually quantify the value of your work, you are in a much stronger negotiating position with your employer and others. It is rarely done by engineers and sets you apart.

In addition to fair compensation, you mention "stressing over issues." I've noticed more than once that I've been stressed over problems my clients didn't really care about. It's not easy, but it's important to keep your stress levels in line with management's (or lower).

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#73
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a sentiment that I think is termed "technological utopianism" and it has limits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_utopianism

Or more generally, this is just a description of Technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology There may be "limits" in terms of scope and trade offs to society, but there are no practical "physical limitations" with respect to available atoms.

I'm not so sure that there are no physical limitations to technological growth, which is ultimately a function of investment in to technology.

https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2012/04/economist-meets-physicist...

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#74
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. >I resent spending 48 weeks a year in an office and stressing over issues that will only make the company's owners richer but won't change much for me. I say don't change much because a 2-3% raise once in a while is nice, but it's nothing in comparison to the thousands/millions extra it will make the company, while the only result for me is that I get to keep my job and do more of that. Who wouldn't resen…

Or maybe most people just don’t have such a simplistic view of the world? People who advocate for socialism just want the rewards of capitalism without any of the risks.

https://local.theonion.com/ceo-worked-way-up-from-son-of-ceo...

Yeah, we wouldn't want people being wealthy beyond belief without deserving it. I can tell that you don't know the first thing about socialism.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#75

Congratulations, you have discovered socialism. Most people find extreme injustice in seeing the value of their labor being stolen by the capitalist class. Socialism is an economic system that does away with the employer-employee distinction and allows all workers to take ownership of their own labor. In practice, this means the democratization of the workplace, and the end to the autocratic workplace. Edit: To actua…

I was going to say the same thing but you beat me to it. Without some form of profit sharing or stake holding by employees, there is simply no way to make the workplace fair. That fairness was traditionally sought by unions but they have lost much of their influence for political reasons because of their relationship with socialism. Richard Wolff has talked at length about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynbgMKclWWc

http://www.democracyatwork.info/

Thom Hartmann's programs are another good source:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWUI-94b3iI

https://www.thomhartmann.com/

Socialism gets a bad rap in the US because it has been abused in the past to give rise to things like fascism and communism. But many social democracies (much of Europe) today enjoy high standards of living and I would argue are focused more on culture and the pursuit of non-material goals than the US.

We're at a crossroads where the middle class is on the brink of failure due to decades of trickle down economics (Reaganomics). Things like the upcoming tax cut will likely lead to stagflation (high inflation and flat wages, last felt in the 1970s) because there is no mathematical or economic basis for lowering taxes in boom times under a high national debt. So this will be the third bust I've seen (the dot bomb and housing bomb being the others) since the Glass-Steagall Act was repealed in 1999 by the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act. Keep in mind that we had almost 70 years of relative stability since it was implemented:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_legisla...

The current trends are towards maximizing concentration of wealth, not just in the US but under multinational corporations. Think of boom-bust cycles as being similar to stock market volatility. The most money is made when prices fluctuate the most, so elected officials are under tremendous lobbying pressure to maximize these peaks and troughs. Meanwhile the working class feels the brunt of the effect, worst for people who have no savings or investments and find themselves overworked/underpaid during boom times and unemployed during down times. They have no investments so miss out on the share of profits made by the wealthy (in effect, a poverty tax).

I’ve tried not to politicize this too much but there are very basic left-right divides at work here and I was born in 1977 so have only witnessed conservative economic policies (Clinton and Obama mostly maintained them, there have been no top marginal rate hikes to pre-Reagan levels of perhaps 50-75%). Incomes flatlined sometime around 1980 and in very real terms, workers today are earning roughly half what the baby boomers earned, adjusted for inflation:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Productivity_and_Rea...

This is probably due to several reasons, a main one being that more women work outside the home today so there was a doubling of the labor pool which put downward pressure on wages. But that’s not enough to explain it entirely. I put the blame squarely on regressive tax policies, for example the separation of income and capital gains tax (so-called earned and unearned income). Net income should probably all be taxed the same way, under a fair tax bracket scheme, preferably a mathematical curve of some kind:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/simplest-suitably-progressive-...

A flat tax is far too regressive, but something approaching linear on a logarithmic scale could work.

What this all means is that it's going to be up to us to work towards some form of progressive taxation or dreaming into the future far enough, a universal basic income like Star Trek. That may require taxing robot labor or coming up with new forms of taxation like putting sales tax on stock trades. If we educate ourselves in things like civics which are no longer taught in school, we can get a picture of what it was like when the US was more democratic and able to change its course. So to answer the original poster’s question: too many hours, too little pay, and to add insult to injury: no self-determination (freedom) in the workplace.

But I think if everyone knew the history of how we got here, it would no longer be ethical to exclude workers from reaping the fruits of their labors via the distinction of employer and employee. And I think that with full access to information, we arrive at the conclusion that progressive taxation is the quickest and most proven way to create a middle class. I don’t think of these things as socialism but that label is used to discredit otherwise logical conclusions in socioeconomics.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#76
post #69

Congratulations, you have discovered socialism. Most people find extreme injustice in seeing the value of their labor being stolen by the capitalist class. Socialism is an economic system that does away with the employer-employee distinction and allows all workers to take ownership of their own labor. In practice, this means the democratization of the workplace, and the end to the autocratic workplace. Edit: To actua…

Owner of a business here... I'm 6 years into owning my own business and things have grown year over year for the company and we are doing quite well. In theory, the democratization of the workplace is a nice idea, and I initially tried to build my business around this idea. But over my time running things, I've realized that hierarchy is necessary, especially when things start to scale up. One of the biggest things I…

Democratization of work doesn't mean zero hierarchy. It means the workers get to choose how their labor value is used. It is perfectly acceptable for a majority of a company to decide to elect a CEO and form a capitalist-style company, but it is important that it is their choice to do so! And of course, they would still retain their right to revoke such a hierarchy.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#77
post #23

Congratulations, you have discovered socialism. Most people find extreme injustice in seeing the value of their labor being stolen by the capitalist class. Socialism is an economic system that does away with the employer-employee distinction and allows all workers to take ownership of their own labor. In practice, this means the democratization of the workplace, and the end to the autocratic workplace. Edit: To actua…

Socialism is only a valid answer if you don't understand technology. If you think there's a fixed pie and we have to forcibly break it into rations so that everyone gets at least something . But technology offers a much better solution, which is grow the pie large enough that everyone has as much as they want. There are no physical limitations to this concept. The universe is rich with everything we need for billions…

I don't think you know what socialism is.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#78

Congratulations, you have discovered socialism. Most people find extreme injustice in seeing the value of their labor being stolen by the capitalist class. Socialism is an economic system that does away with the employer-employee distinction and allows all workers to take ownership of their own labor. In practice, this means the democratization of the workplace, and the end to the autocratic workplace. Edit: To actua…

You can build your socialist enterprise in any capitalist system, it's not like it's forbidden as long as you pay your bills.

Yes, because a socialist enterprise can exist in a system where the ultra-wealthy capitalist can

1. Buy out the company and outsource everything 2. Buy out the politicians and make laws against them 3. Use their extreme wealth to sabotage their business. 4. In the case of other nations, embargo them and assassinate their leaders, stoke pro-capitalist revolutions.

Examples: See Cuba, USSR, entirety of South America, Vietnam, etc.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#79

Congratulations, you have discovered socialism. Most people find extreme injustice in seeing the value of their labor being stolen by the capitalist class. Socialism is an economic system that does away with the employer-employee distinction and allows all workers to take ownership of their own labor. In practice, this means the democratization of the workplace, and the end to the autocratic workplace. Edit: To actua…

Most people find extreme injustice in seeing the value of their labor being stolen by the capitalist class. Nonsense. Most people don’t think their labor is stolen or find extreme injustice in getting paid for their labor. You need to get outside your bubble.

I think you are in the bubble. How much of the world do you think gets paid fairly for their labor? The First-World conditions of America and Europe are buoyed by the dystopic conditions of labor in the Third-World. And these conditions are very visibly creeping into middle class America as well.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#80

Congratulations, you have discovered socialism. Most people find extreme injustice in seeing the value of their labor being stolen by the capitalist class. Socialism is an economic system that does away with the employer-employee distinction and allows all workers to take ownership of their own labor. In practice, this means the democratization of the workplace, and the end to the autocratic workplace. Edit: To actua…

Anyone who thinks this is a great idea should take a trip to Cuba. Seriously. I had the same affliction and about 8 days into Cuba I was totally cured.

Take a trip to any non-first-world capitalist country. Funny how only a handful of countries benefit from capitalism, while the rest have their resources and labor pillaged. Sounds a lot like a capitalist business.
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