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$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

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Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#271

Post by pas »

thatcat wrote: post #239
harryh wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. We have all the technology and processes we could ever need to distribute and charge people dollars for things. Creating a whole new kind of currency with its own special rules is a huge undertaking. Not to mention the ongoing pain-in-the ass cost to every citizen when they have to carry around and think about a new special kind of money that can only be used for one thing.

The tech isn't the problem, it's that the avalibility distribution that is imposed on roads is the same as the income distribution. In a way it creates the same problems as removing net neutrality. If you did that with roads, what's stopping the upper income distribution from excluding everyone else from entire cities? A gated community concept might scale to an entire upperclass city with a private airport, hostpita…

> it makes everyone easily trackable.

zkSNARKs for the rescue! It's surprisingly easy to roll with that. (See Zcash, Monero, ETH and whatever.)

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#272

Post by pas »

dredmorbius wrote: post #243
pas wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Setting up a traffic-ration system fairly is probably a lot simpler than giving poor people money.

There are simple and effective (from a traffic-flow-control perspective) solutions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramp_meter I'd focus more on one of my other punts above: ways of drawing a correspondence between traffic and congestion, on the one hand, and alternative transit options (buses, rail, cycling, telecommuting, etc.) on the other. Market pricing signals fail to provide the coordination many of these option…

> alternative transit options

I like driving, but I'm very bad at managing the stress associated with owning a car, finding a parking spot, sitting in congestion, trying to be there in time (speeding to gain a few minutes that makes no sense), hence I don't have a car.

And I wouldn't live in a place that requires one.

And I can't understand how the US is so deep in the hole with regards to mass transit / public transport, commute time, etc.

Sure, I know, it's a classic coordination problem, and I'm probably very biased by having access to a very cheap and efficient public transit network.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#273

Post by PhantomGremlin »

sharpercoder wrote: post #215
beobab wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you?

The Netherlands.

It's OK to be proud of "the best road system in the world". As you point out, you pay taxes to support it.

However, it's easier to solve certain types of transportation problems when your population density is as high as it is in The Netherlands.

Consider that 41 out of 50 US states have a larger land area than The Netherlands. Consider that only 4 out of 50 US states have a larger population than The Netherlands.

We in the USA need to build and maintain a lot of roads. And our lower population density means that mass transit isn't nearly as viable, except in the largest metropolitan areas, as it is in most of Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ...

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#274

Post by speedplane »

dalbasal wrote: post #135
speedplane wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see your point now. I think you could go further with it. Arguably, a poor person who has never been on an airplane would get far more "utility" from a flight on a private jet than someone who flies every day. So one could argue (a stretch), that the poor, and not the rich, should ride that toll road if it would increase total happiness more. But that seems ridiculous, and I think the issue here is that we're confl…

Capitalism is another kettle of fish perhaps. A lot of liberal market ideas (Smith, Ricardo, etc) are essentially utilitarian. That is, they use utilitarian arguments to prove their points, so they're basically tied into the same assumptions. Ricardo's theory of comparative advantage is pure utilitarianism, and is the classical economics "proof" that trade is efficient. To this day, the most important theory of trade…

Utilitarians have struggled for decades to properly define "utility". The approach Bentham took (the father of utilitarianism) is completely different from John Stewart Mills, also a giant in utilitarianism. "Utility" is a far more vague concept than "efficiency".

Maximizing efficiency is less complex than utilitarianism. Capitalism strives for efficient allocation of resources based on supply and demand, i.e., what people have and what people want, it makes no promises on maximizing total happiness or equitable distribution.

For a utilitarian "putting a scarce resource to its (most productive) use" would indeed be to provide the maximum amount of enjoyment. But for a capitalist, it's simply the amount that someone is willing and able to pay for it.

I know some free market proponents use utilitarian ideas to make their point, and there is overlap, but they are a bad fit. Utilitarianism is a moral theory based on maximizing total good. Capitalism is an economic system that seems to have worked more than most other systems. There are moral arguments for capitalism, but they are based on individual freedom, not collective happiness.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#275

Post by speedplane »

Thiez wrote: post #131
speedplane wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree that dollars are not the ideal measure of utility, primarily because of of diminishing marginal returns as you get more wealthy. But they are pretty good for the majority. Appealing to a right to an egalitarian "family dinner time" is also not terribly convincing. There are plenty of rich people who don't care much about family dinner time. There are plenty of poor who would eagerly spend half their day's wages…

> There are plenty of poor who would eagerly spend half their day's wages to make it home on time. How does that not drive a person insane? Let's assume an 8 hour workday (so this would be a $10/hour job). How would you feel if you knew that after working your first 4 hours of the day, you basically aren't making any more money for the next 4 hours: all the money you make from that point on will be spent on getting h…

I'm surprised by your surprise, this insanity happens all the time. Parents miss baseball games, kids birthdays, and anniversaries because they are stuck in the office or at the plant. People work underpaid jobs for years with the hope that if they stick it out, they might get their reward. Parents sacrifice their entire lives to give their children a better shot.

The world is tough and trade-offs between time, money, and future opportunity are constantly being made at every income level.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#276

Post by grasshopperpurp »

Tinyyy wrote: post #255
grasshopperpurp wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you make $550 per day, $40 is 7% of your daily income; if you make $82 per day, it's 49%. That's not the same for everyone. Of course, there are people who make well more than $550 per day and people who make significantly less than $82 per day. ($200,000/365=$550; $30,000/365=$82)

By that logic, almost every single rule in this world is 'unfair' towards the poor, because of course things cost disproportionately more for the poor.

Public goods.

And, yes, most rules are unfair to poor people. Who do you think makes the rules?

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#278

Post by greenleafjacob »

pas wrote: post #272
dredmorbius wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are simple and effective (from a traffic-flow-control perspective) solutions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramp_meter I'd focus more on one of my other punts above: ways of drawing a correspondence between traffic and congestion, on the one hand, and alternative transit options (buses, rail, cycling, telecommuting, etc.) on the other. Market pricing signals fail to provide the coordination many of these option…

> alternative transit options I like driving, but I'm very bad at managing the stress associated with owning a car, finding a parking spot, sitting in congestion, trying to be there in time (speeding to gain a few minutes that makes no sense), hence I don't have a car. And I wouldn't live in a place that requires one. And I can't understand how the US is so deep in the hole with regards to mass transit / public trans…

Finding a parking spot is usually not an issue for US citizens since we mandate lots of parking through zoning laws.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#279

Post by megablast »

kalleboo wrote: post #59
iaw wrote: post #2

> "The real reason there's sticker shock is that the real cost of road transportation is hidden from most voters. Gas tax money goes to states and the US Department of Transportation which flows back as what seems like free federal money to build a lot of roads. Meanwhile, every transit project has to scrimp for funds..." "...estimated that tolls would have to be at least $41 to pay off the costs of construction." A…

An interesting contrast is Japan, where the highway system was totally privatized, and to get almost anywhere you have to pay tolls. A 300 km (280 mi) drive can cost you 6000 yen ($50) in tolls. Of course in Japan there are usually alternatives. Not always any cheaper though. The bullet train for the same route as above costs 9000 yen, but is 3x faster than driving.

This is fantastic, and as it should be everywhere.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#280

Post by megablast »

divanvisagie wrote: post #35
JauntyHatAngle wrote: post #29

I mean, one of the problems with tolls is that it is another form of taxing that has a bigger impact the lower income you have. Without getting into an ideological discussion, having surge pricing on tolls would contribute to a minor divide in class. In Australia this is a current topic, as (in Sydney specifically) there was a recent controversial highway widening which has been funded by tolls and constructed by a p…

Ive seen multiple sources say that widening roads only makes the problem worse yet in this article and in your comment it seems like the "solution" people are going for. That leaves me wondering; Are these sources not sound or are the people in charge of transport morons?

If all you have is a hammer... Australia cities are dominated by cars, people can't imagine a world with them, even the cities are cars first. It is a joke.
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