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$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

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Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#81

Post by ForHackernews »

kbutler wrote: post #70
rayiner wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Road capacity is a scarce resource, and it should be allocated with a market mechanism like every other resource. You can then take the economic gain created by the increased efficiency and tax it to provide more public transit services.

I'm a really market-oriented guy, but I have concerns about wealth's distorting effect on markets. That is, the "cost" of an item is much less to a wealthy person than to a non-wealthy person. Billionaire Bob can spend $100,000 on a whim, but Pauper Paul can't scrounge $10,000 for life-critical health-care. Or after a natural disaster, market theory says equilibrium prices rise to balance demand, but prices cannot ri…

Some interesting ideas on this front:

1) Using markets to allocate resources without real money: http://review.chicagobooth.edu/economics/2016/article/why-fa...

2) Finland charges road fines on a "day-rate" that varies depending on the offender's income: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/03/finland...

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#82

Post by JetSpiegel »

kbutler wrote: post #70
rayiner wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Road capacity is a scarce resource, and it should be allocated with a market mechanism like every other resource. You can then take the economic gain created by the increased efficiency and tax it to provide more public transit services.

I'm a really market-oriented guy, but I have concerns about wealth's distorting effect on markets. That is, the "cost" of an item is much less to a wealthy person than to a non-wealthy person. Billionaire Bob can spend $100,000 on a whim, but Pauper Paul can't scrounge $10,000 for life-critical health-care. Or after a natural disaster, market theory says equilibrium prices rise to balance demand, but prices cannot ri…

> It almost feels like there needs to be some fixed currency that everyone gets equal amounts of per day and that can be exchanged for the really important things.

Votes could be that, but they too are depreciating.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#83

Post by beobab »

sharpercoder wrote: post #79

We have the best road system in the world with high quality roads over the whole country. Most roads are "rain-resistant", meaning heavy rainfall does not affect road conditions negatively. We don't have any toll roads. We do pay a relatively high tax for it though. The article is spot on that tolls are the consequence of public not willing to increase their taxes.

Where are you?

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#84

Post by im3w1l »

bambax wrote: post #72

> Which would you prefer in general: Being forbidden from doing something at all, or allowed to do it at high cost? Under standard economic theory, the latter should always be better. In the first scenario, you have one option: don't do it. In the second, you have two options, including the same option as before. This is not how the human mind works. One part is obvious: would you rather starve, with no options, or s…

Even fully rational people can prefer less options. According to game theory you're better off without a steering wheel in "chicken".

And while credible threats may be uncommon, removing the possibility of defection for a group of people seems like a very common potential for gain.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#85

Post by JetSpiegel »

cobbzilla wrote: post #58
olympus wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely unique. I've never lived in DC but visited a few times for work and was flabbergasted when I heard about slug lines (I still am). It's a bad driving situation when you'll voluntarily get into a stranger's car, and drivers will just let random strangers in their car. That doesn't happen in any of the cities I've lived in.

They do this in the SF Bay area, it's called casual carpool. Very popular in the East Bay. I used to do it for many years, both as a driver and passenger. It's all about getting past the Bay Bridge toll plaza, and the carpool lane goes way faster than the (sometimes horribly) backed up traffic. The FastTrac lanes aren't any good when it gets so backed up. Yes there are myriad unspoken rules, and hilarious stories abo…

Can't you have that experience every day using BART?

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#86

Post by netc »

rayiner wrote: post #63
maxxxxx wrote: post #37

My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them (I make six figures but I doubt I would ever pay $40 for a toll. I would need much more money). These are also often the most influential people so they may think that everything is OK because they can afford the toll and never suffer in traffic. I think the same is happening with health care. Most people in Congress hav…

Road capacity is a scarce resource, and it should be allocated with a market mechanism like every other resource. You can then take the economic gain created by the increased efficiency and tax it to provide more public transit services.

A big reason of income gap is opportunity gap. We keep widening the opportunity gap by adding 'fast lanes' to people who can afford it, rather than improving the situation for all. In this particular case, perhaps, there is no short term solution to improve for all but it makes me little sad anyway.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#87

Post by vog »

rayiner wrote: post #63
maxxxxx wrote: post #37

My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them (I make six figures but I doubt I would ever pay $40 for a toll. I would need much more money). These are also often the most influential people so they may think that everything is OK because they can afford the toll and never suffer in traffic. I think the same is happening with health care. Most people in Congress hav…

Road capacity is a scarce resource, and it should be allocated with a market mechanism like every other resource. You can then take the economic gain created by the increased efficiency and tax it to provide more public transit services.

Ouch! Regulating infrastructure purely by market mechanisms is an ugly anti-pattern that is well-known for decades, if not centuries.

Among others, this creates an incentive to keep the resource scarce and to not invest into maintaining and expanding it. Why? Because the lowest level infrastructure is a natural monopoly: Even if it was technically feasible (put wires next to existing wires, put pipes next to existing pipes, put streets next to existing streets), nobody can afford to do this. The lowest level infrastructure is only efficient if shared.

And for this simple reason, it only works well as long as the lowest level infrastructure is public good. This is true for all basic needs: water (pipes, sewer), electricity (wires), transportation (streets, rail roads) and even the internet (wires, radio masts and towers).

The debate about the latter one is also known as net neutrality. But it's really just a special case of the general pattern - if you accept internet as a basic need in today's world.

On top of that public infrastructure, a free market can and should evolve. But note that it will only be a free market if the basic layer access is non-discriminatory, which in particular means that it is easy for newcomers to get in. Otherwise you have maket distortion from day one, and all arguments about market mechanisms are moot. Which is unfortunately the reality in many areas, although its badness varies from country to country.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#88

Post by maxxxxx »

ForHackernews wrote: post #81
kbutler wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a really market-oriented guy, but I have concerns about wealth's distorting effect on markets. That is, the "cost" of an item is much less to a wealthy person than to a non-wealthy person. Billionaire Bob can spend $100,000 on a whim, but Pauper Paul can't scrounge $10,000 for life-critical health-care. Or after a natural disaster, market theory says equilibrium prices rise to balance demand, but prices cannot ri…

Some interesting ideas on this front: 1) Using markets to allocate resources without real money: http://review.chicagobooth.edu/economics/2016/article/why-fa... 2) Finland charges road fines on a "day-rate" that varies depending on the offender's income: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/03/finland...

Making fees and fines dependent on income is a good way to get incentives right. In Germany for example health insurance is based on your income, not a fixed amount like here.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#89

Post by raverbashing »

rayiner wrote: post #63
maxxxxx wrote: post #37

My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them (I make six figures but I doubt I would ever pay $40 for a toll. I would need much more money). These are also often the most influential people so they may think that everything is OK because they can afford the toll and never suffer in traffic. I think the same is happening with health care. Most people in Congress hav…

Road capacity is a scarce resource, and it should be allocated with a market mechanism like every other resource. You can then take the economic gain created by the increased efficiency and tax it to provide more public transit services.

Donated organs are a scarce resource

Radio spectrum is a scarce resource

You can't solve those with market mechanisms

Electrical transmission and generation facilities are somewhat scarce and we all see how the "free marked" worked great in the Enron case there

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#90

Post by ehnto »

Someone1234 wrote: post #3

Ignoring the morals for a second, with tolls that high and difficulty identifying which vehicles qualify for a HOV exemption, I wonder how many days of tolls a single ticket is and likelihood of being caught? Let's say a ticket is $150. If the toll is $6 then you're likely better off paying the toll as you're likely to be caught at least once every 25 days. At $40 they'd need to catch you at least once a week for you…

When I was younger, and new to the city, I used to park in a car park where the fines were $22, but to park for a full day was $20.

I got a few tickets. Let me tell you, escalation of parking violations in my state are no joke. I forgot about one or two of them just before I moved, so by the time they found me again they had made their way through the court system and had been there a couple of months. A hefty $300 levy is applied immediately, and failure to pay the fine is now failure to pay a state fine not a council fine, with the next steps being another $750, then suspension of vehicle services (can't register your car) then finally suspension of your drivers license, and you can't travel abroad. Times this all by two for two tickets.

The suspension of my drivers license was how I found out about this silent tsunami of infractions building up toward me, and when it broke across the shore, I was left stranded with my car and yet another $1000 fine for driving unlicensed (news to me).

I repealed and the whole situation went away, as I never recieved any of the letters and was unaware.

I do think it's ridiculous a $20 parking fine is allowed to escalate that far, but I suppose it worked, as I pay my tickets now.

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