$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology • Hacker News Board

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#21

Post by losteric » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 5:24 AM UTC

olympus wrote: post #4

I don't think people are being unreasonable by being unhappy with a $40 toll. The way the article words it, solo drivers all of a sudden saw a $40 toll where they previously had no permission to drive at all. What actually happened was that people were expecting to see a $6 toll be put in place and instead saw a $40. Imagine going to McDonald's where your friend told you that you could get a Filet o' Fish for $1 but…

The other aspect is that politicians simply didn't communicate the nuance - the toll exists to LIMIT access, it will be as high as necessary to keep traffic flowing.

People understood the clear division that existed prior to tolling - the separate lanes were for commuters that had a lower environmental and traffic impact, and people that had to catch a flight. A price tag reframes the problem in terms of access to a paid service... and everyone expects to be able to afford access to public infrastructure.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#22

Post by rayiner » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 5:25 AM UTC

joeax wrote: post #15

> Which would you prefer in general: Being forbidden from doing something at all, or allowed to do it at high cost? This is market economics at its best. If you don't like the $40 toll go back to alternative routes you were using before they introduced the toll. I also find it ironic that "free market" Republicans are suddenly stamping their feet and demanding either price controls at $6 or reverting to the old syste…

It’s nuts. Reasonable people can differ about the accuracy of economic predictions on the large scale, but market mechanisms are great for things like this (and surge pricing, etc).

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#23

Post by EGreg » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 5:29 AM UTC

mnm1 wrote: post #12

Someone1234 wrote: post #3

Ignoring the morals for a second, with tolls that high and difficulty identifying which vehicles qualify for a HOV exemption, I wonder how many days of tolls a single ticket is and likelihood of being caught? Let's say a ticket is $150. If the toll is $6 then you're likely better off paying the toll as you're likely to be caught at least once every 25 days. At $40 they'd need to catch you at least once a week for you…

I think the likelihood of getting caught is close to 100% each day. HOV policing is an extremely high priority in the DC area and because of dedicated highways like this, also extremely easy and profitable for police. Also, I believe fines start around $250 and quickly move to $1000. There is a whole informal system of carpooling called "slugs" that works with the system. That'd be your best bet. Or, at $70 round tri…

What if you have dummies in your car? :-D

Haxor News - had to ask

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#24

Post by jeffwilcox » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 5:30 AM UTC

thisisit wrote: post #11

> To many drivers' surprise, though, the tolls during rush hour were high, hitting $34.50 Monday morning and reaching $40 Tuesday. Is this like "surge pricing" on tolls? I thought most of the tolls are fixed to allow people know in advance what they must pay. If it increases based on demand, I think people will get mad. I think the psychology, if any, need not go towards the two choices. But rather what people though…

Here in Washington state our 405 lanes have new "Express toll" lanes; if you have 3+ people during rush hour you get to use them free, otherwise for 1-2 people you pay up to $10 based on congestion...

The prices are mostly set dynamically to in theory keep the average speed above a specific number to qualify for federal funding of the work.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#25

Post by philsnow » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 5:37 AM UTC

> Last week, only people in carpools with two people or more, drivers with an exempt hybrid vehicle, [...] during peak times.

> This week, [...]. Hybrid folks and Dulles users also lost their privileges, [...]

If I bought a home on the far end of this road thinking I could buy a hybrid or electric car and use it on the toll road, and then suddenly they take that away and start charging $30 each way, I'd be really upset.

Whether the expectation that this road would remain open to hybrid cars is a _reasonable_ one is an interesting question. I'm not aware of similar changes (hybrids losing their exemption) in other road systems, but I don't exactly read transit-hawk blogs.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#26

Post by olympus » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 5:45 AM UTC

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #10

olympus wrote: post #4

I don't think people are being unreasonable by being unhappy with a $40 toll. The way the article words it, solo drivers all of a sudden saw a $40 toll where they previously had no permission to drive at all. What actually happened was that people were expecting to see a $6 toll be put in place and instead saw a $40. Imagine going to McDonald's where your friend told you that you could get a Filet o' Fish for $1 but…

where they previously had no permission to drive at all. I think this is where it's getting hung up. The signage and all other road markings on I-66 did not give a solo driver the overwhelming impression that they did not have "permission" to drive on those roads. Compounding this is that it was/is only during certain portions of the day. As an example, if I go onto the Dulles or Loudoun county toll roads, it's expli…

Definitely unique. I've never lived in DC but visited a few times for work and was flabbergasted when I heard about slug lines (I still am). It's a bad driving situation when you'll voluntarily get into a stranger's car, and drivers will just let random strangers in their car. That doesn't happen in any of the cities I've lived in.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#27

Post by donatj » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 5:46 AM UTC

ACow_Adonis wrote: post #13

Someone1234 wrote: post #3

Ignoring the morals for a second, with tolls that high and difficulty identifying which vehicles qualify for a HOV exemption, I wonder how many days of tolls a single ticket is and likelihood of being caught? Let's say a ticket is $150. If the toll is $6 then you're likely better off paying the toll as you're likely to be caught at least once every 25 days. At $40 they'd need to catch you at least once a week for you…

Do they not have e-tags, cameras and registrations in this part of the world? I genuinely ask, since my assumption when using toll roads here is that the fine would find you pretty much as soon as you use the road...marginal errors and bugs aside.

Do you need a tag to carpool where you are? Here in MN you do not, so it makes the HOV difficult to enforce, particularly because our Supreme Court decided you cannot be ticketed by camera. You basically have to have a cop car come up beside you.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#28

Post by omgbananas » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 5:47 AM UTC

EGreg wrote: post #23

mnm1 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the likelihood of getting caught is close to 100% each day. HOV policing is an extremely high priority in the DC area and because of dedicated highways like this, also extremely easy and profitable for police. Also, I believe fines start around $250 and quickly move to $1000. There is a whole informal system of carpooling called "slugs" that works with the system. That'd be your best bet. Or, at $70 round tri…

What if you have dummies in your car? :-D Haxor News - had to ask

https://www.google.com/search?q=dummy+hov+lane

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#29

Post by JauntyHatAngle » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 5:48 AM UTC

I mean, one of the problems with tolls is that it is another form of taxing that has a bigger impact the lower income you have.

Without getting into an ideological discussion, having surge pricing on tolls would contribute to a minor divide in class.

In Australia this is a current topic, as (in Sydney specifically) there was a recent controversial highway widening which has been funded by tolls and constructed by a private company, which will own the road and tolls for the next 100 years or so. This highway leads to/from the CBD as a work commute for everyone coming from the west part of the city (the poorer part usually..) and so has direct influence on people's pockets in an already high expenses city on people choosing to live further away in a cheaper part of the city.

This perhaps does not directly apply to this specific instance, but I do think it illustrates that this is slightly more of a complex issue and has more implications than the simplification of the issue the article author wrote - if you introduce a toll but allow people to use it, that does have an impact on overall equality in society, even if you can debate the merits & size of the impact.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#30

Post by sliverstorm » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 5:51 AM UTC

philsnow wrote: post #25

> Last week, only people in carpools with two people or more, drivers with an exempt hybrid vehicle, [...] during peak times. > This week, [...]. Hybrid folks and Dulles users also lost their privileges, [...] If I bought a home on the far end of this road thinking I could buy a hybrid or electric car and use it on the toll road, and then suddenly they take that away and start charging $30 each way, I'd be really ups…

California was the same way, hybrids were only supposed to get HOV access for a little while. It was written into the original law. (Don't know if that ever changed)