$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology • Hacker News Board

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#221

Post by xtreme » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 4:06 PM UTC

ehnto wrote: post #90

Someone1234 wrote: post #3

Ignoring the morals for a second, with tolls that high and difficulty identifying which vehicles qualify for a HOV exemption, I wonder how many days of tolls a single ticket is and likelihood of being caught? Let's say a ticket is $150. If the toll is $6 then you're likely better off paying the toll as you're likely to be caught at least once every 25 days. At $40 they'd need to catch you at least once a week for you…

When I was younger, and new to the city, I used to park in a car park where the fines were $22, but to park for a full day was $20. I got a few tickets. Let me tell you, escalation of parking violations in my state are no joke. I forgot about one or two of them just before I moved, so by the time they found me again they had made their way through the court system and had been there a couple of months. A hefty $300 l…

This is a pretty standard way of how governments enforce their authority. Each demand is backed with the threat of a bigger punishment, ultimately ending with incarceration. I wonder if there is any alternative strategy that is "better"? Dings on credit score? Automatic garnishment of wage / tax return?

In practice, however, most of the issues arise from people not getting the notices in time due to moving, clerical errors, etc. Unfortunately, there is very little recourse (and a lot of hassle) if the state makes a mistake.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#222

Post by Demoneeri » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 4:07 PM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #77

mjevans wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lack of urban planning. * Not enough family sized units in the city (drive down cost with supply). * Insufficient quality of life in building codes. (Noise, smell, clean air, green spaces) * Lack of vertical density; This is begging for Cave of Steel like results complete with indoor parks and atriums.

There's not a lack of urban planning; there's an urban planning (and popular) consensus "lack of vertical density" == "quality of life."

Density =/= high rise. Lots of 3-5-story building mix with townhouses creates the density you need with a human-size feel.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#223

Post by ihm » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 4:08 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #150

maxxxxx wrote: post #37

My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them (I make six figures but I doubt I would ever pay $40 for a toll. I would need much more money). These are also often the most influential people so they may think that everything is OK because they can afford the toll and never suffer in traffic. I think the same is happening with health care. Most people in Congress hav…

> My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them... Yes, the toll is high, but only during peak usage hours. And there are other routes to take (that low income people presumably have been already using). In general, progressively pricing services is a mistake. Instead, we should be progressively supplementing incomes (minimum income, negative income tax, commuter ca…

Tolls aren’t a market priced good. Treating them like one is just misusing the mechanism, with the net result being the people getting to use the road are chosen roughly to be the wealthiest people who want to.

There are other resource allocation schemes besides giving resources to the wealthiest, for example by giving resources to the least wealthy. Or, as I suggested elsewhere, giving “highway passes” away by random lottery to everyone (with win probability set so that the expected number of winners is the correct number of road users).

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#224

Post by humanrebar » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 4:08 PM UTC

colanderman wrote: post #186

humanrebar wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lobbying of local city council isn't expensive. It mostly involves time: contacting them, writing letters to local media, forming online groups to organize the neighborhood, etc. The price of homes and rent are actually really important. If low-density housing is much more expensive, it should be reflected in the cost of living for those places. If having the entire city on the same 9-5 commuting schedule is expensiv…

> Lobbying of local city council isn't expensive. It mostly involves time Time is something poor people have very little of, as they generally spend most of it trying to make money to make ends meet. (This is something I've often seen poorly understood: some people seem to think that because a rich person makes more money, their time is "worth more" to them. Nothing could be further from the truth. Each hour of a poo…

> Time is something poor people have very little of, as they generally spend most of it trying to make money to make ends meet.

I'm not talking about forming a DC lobbying firm. I'm saying they should ask Councilman Chalmers about these problems at the soccer game, after church, at the grocery store, at the Fourth of July fireworks display, or wherever she tends to be. One of the advantages of local government is that it doesn't take piles of money or tons of energy to speak your mind.

And, yes, I've been poor, so I know how things work. And, while young and poor, I have seen plenty of blue collar (at best) folks speaking out at town hall sessions, etc. The show Parks and Rec makes fun of blue collar citizen activism quite a bit, actually. They generally portray them as crazy, loud, and stupid while Leslie Knope (or someone) puts up with them. If they all said "we need a bus line running more often down Grand Ave", the message would get across.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#225

Post by loudouncodes » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 4:12 PM UTC

There is an important point lost here. People are saying 'people who couldn't use the road before now have the option to', but they are ignoring that the restricted hours were increased by 90 minutes in the morning and evening. I used to have an option to get to work super-early, or work till 7pm then head home on a road that was no busier than the rest of the regions traffic. Those options are now off the table. What was legal, fair, free, and without congestion is now blocked by a toll that is pushing early morning traffic onto roads not built for commuter traffic.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#226

Post by jrf6 » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 4:14 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #166

InitialLastName wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> change what they'll pay in rent, > the prices of homes, > the lobbying of their representatives for more public transportation, Those things all have a not insignificant cost that makes them potentially unavailable to the folks at the less wealthy end of our society.

Lobbying of local city council isn't expensive. It mostly involves time: contacting them, writing letters to local media, forming online groups to organize the neighborhood, etc. The price of homes and rent are actually really important. If low-density housing is much more expensive, it should be reflected in the cost of living for those places. If having the entire city on the same 9-5 commuting schedule is expensiv…

They haven't raised the price of commuting at all, because the only people that have to pay the toll are solo drivers, and this road was not previously available to solo drivers during rush hour.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#227

Post by colanderman » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 4:16 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #224

colanderman wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lobbying of local city council isn't expensive. It mostly involves time Time is something poor people have very little of, as they generally spend most of it trying to make money to make ends meet. (This is something I've often seen poorly understood: some people seem to think that because a rich person makes more money, their time is "worth more" to them. Nothing could be further from the truth. Each hour of a poo…

> Time is something poor people have very little of, as they generally spend most of it trying to make money to make ends meet. I'm not talking about forming a DC lobbying firm. I'm saying they should ask Councilman Chalmers about these problems at the soccer game, after church, at the grocery store, at the Fourth of July fireworks display, or wherever she tends to be. One of the advantages of local government is tha…

> If they all said "we need a bus line running more often down Grand Ave", the message would get across.

That kind of activism requires time and energy that those working multiple jobs to feed their kids do not have. Doubly so if there is someone on the other side opposed to expansion of the bus routes (either due to NIMBYism or tax aversion or what-have-you).

That you see blue-collar people at town halls doesn't negate my point that doing so is expensive for them, and relatively more so than for the local well-off NIMBY.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#228

Post by thaeli » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 4:19 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #179

wyager wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On top of all that, roads are not "full" markets. This is not a free market solution. You can add a price system. but you don't have supply side effects. The solution is to auction road capacity and use the auction proceeds to fund maintenance of that road and construction of others. Besides being vastly more efficient (from a market perspective) than an arbitrary fixed rate, it also means that resources are alloca…

How do you propose to run an auction on autos entering a given roadway?

The dynamic toll pricing, based on utilization, on this roadway is very nearly an auction.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#229

Post by londons_explore » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 4:24 PM UTC

ihm wrote: post #223

humanrebar wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them... Yes, the toll is high, but only during peak usage hours. And there are other routes to take (that low income people presumably have been already using). In general, progressively pricing services is a mistake. Instead, we should be progressively supplementing incomes (minimum income, negative income tax, commuter ca…

Tolls aren’t a market priced good. Treating them like one is just misusing the mechanism, with the net result being the people getting to use the road are chosen roughly to be the wealthiest people who want to. There are other resource allocation schemes besides giving resources to the wealthiest, for example by giving resources to the least wealthy. Or, as I suggested elsewhere, giving “highway passes” away by rando…

Why aren't they a market-priced good?

It's a market with a fixed supply, but other markets like that work just fine. For example, the USA has a fixed amount of land, and that is sold at a market, and has settled on mostly reasonable rates.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#230

Post by zeveb » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 4:29 PM UTC

The article quotes a legislator:

> which is why I called charging the highest toll in the country what it is: price gouging.

No, no, no it's not price gouging: it's charging what the privilege of driving in the fast lane is worth.

The problem in northern Virginia is that there are too many people commuting. Fortunately, there's the entire rest of the country that they can move to.

'Not located in northern Virginia, New York or California' is a very real marketing edge for a potential employer.