$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology • Hacker News Board

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#171

Post by CalRobert » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 2:10 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #37

My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them (I make six figures but I doubt I would ever pay $40 for a toll. I would need much more money). These are also often the most influential people so they may think that everything is OK because they can afford the toll and never suffer in traffic. I think the same is happening with health care. Most people in Congress hav…

Or, people who don't have a lot of money but really, really need to get there in a hurry can use them too. See: late for job interview, in labour, late for flight, etc.

Also if you're driving a vehicle you own you're already not among the poorest folks out there.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#172

Post by harryh » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 2:11 PM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #98

maxxxxx wrote: post #37

My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them (I make six figures but I doubt I would ever pay $40 for a toll. I would need much more money). These are also often the most influential people so they may think that everything is OK because they can afford the toll and never suffer in traffic. I think the same is happening with health care. Most people in Congress hav…

I think there is a 1st principles economic rationale that agrees with you. In a nutshell, you need to get down to the "utility" concept. It's used (for example) to theoretically prove/support the idea that free exchange is always beneficial for both parties. Putting prices onto otherwise unrestricted resources likewise optimizes for utility, especially if there are tragedy of the commons issues. The catch is that uti…

I would like to see some less idealistic economists take over on these issues. One interesting option is creating a fake "currency" for fast lanes.

If poor people don't have enough money, then we should give them money instead of fake currency. Giving them fake currency reduces utility.

If we give them money they can buy whatever they want/need the most. If we give them scrip that can only be used on one thing then they have to buy that even if they would value it less than something else.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#173

Post by chrisseaton » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 2:18 PM UTC

madaxe_again wrote: post #101

maxxxxx wrote: post #37

My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them (I make six figures but I doubt I would ever pay $40 for a toll. I would need much more money). These are also often the most influential people so they may think that everything is OK because they can afford the toll and never suffer in traffic. I think the same is happening with health care. Most people in Congress hav…

They have a strategy in the UK to get everyone to pay £40 tolls, regardless of your income - by stealth. There’s been a trend towards digital tolls - that is, no physical means to pay, you just have to know that you need to go online to their site to pay within an hour of leaving the toll road/bridge. Thing is, many operators have little signage, poor or unavailable websites, and you can end up in a situation where y…

> you need to go online to their site to pay within an hour of leaving the toll road/bridge

Pay within an hour? I think you're exaggerating.

Merseyflow and Dartmouth are both midnight at the end of the day after you have crossed. So that's guaranteed at least 24 hours.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#174

Post by MandieD » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 2:21 PM UTC

nawtacawp wrote: post #141

maxxxxx wrote: post #37

My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them (I make six figures but I doubt I would ever pay $40 for a toll. I would need much more money). These are also often the most influential people so they may think that everything is OK because they can afford the toll and never suffer in traffic. I think the same is happening with health care. Most people in Congress hav…

I live in DC and I recently took a trip to a rural part of America. I must say I was a bit shocked. I have been in my little metro bubble for so long that I was completely out of touch with how rough rural areas are looking.

There are towns that have given up maintaining parts of their road networks and are intentionally turning some hard-to-maintain paved roads into gravel roads - "depaving".

https://www.wired.com/2016/07/cash-strapped-towns-un-paving-...

Even my home state (Texas), which isn't in an obvious economic crisis (though its budget situation is arguably a self-made crisis by our crazy legislature), has been doing it for a few years now:

https://www.texastribune.org/2013/08/19/conversion-of-roads-...

But Michigan is the example I remember hearing about the most: http://www.ttnews.com/articles/lacking-proper-funding-mainte...

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#175

Post by MandieD » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 2:24 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #88

ForHackernews wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some interesting ideas on this front: 1) Using markets to allocate resources without real money: http://review.chicagobooth.edu/economics/2016/article/why-fa... 2) Finland charges road fines on a "day-rate" that varies depending on the offender's income: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/03/finland...

Making fees and fines dependent on income is a good way to get incentives right. In Germany for example health insurance is based on your income, not a fixed amount like here.

But only up to a certain point: the tax is only on the first 50k EUR or so of your salary, and there is a minimum charged (about 100 EUR/mo.) no matter how little you make.

Still fairer than the US, though.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#176

Post by pc86 » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 2:27 PM UTC

olympus wrote: post #4

I don't think people are being unreasonable by being unhappy with a $40 toll. The way the article words it, solo drivers all of a sudden saw a $40 toll where they previously had no permission to drive at all. What actually happened was that people were expecting to see a $6 toll be put in place and instead saw a $40. Imagine going to McDonald's where your friend told you that you could get a Filet o' Fish for $1 but…

> Imagine going to McDonald's where your friend told you that you could get a Filet o' Fish for $1 but when you get there you find out that McDonald's was charging $5. You'd be mad.

Yes. At my friend, for being wrong, and for suggesting I eat a Filet o' Fish. I wouldn't be mad at McDonald's.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#177

Post by colanderman » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 2:27 PM UTC

CalRobert wrote: post #171

maxxxxx wrote: post #37

My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them (I make six figures but I doubt I would ever pay $40 for a toll. I would need much more money). These are also often the most influential people so they may think that everything is OK because they can afford the toll and never suffer in traffic. I think the same is happening with health care. Most people in Congress hav…

Or, people who don't have a lot of money but really, really need to get there in a hurry can use them too. See: late for job interview, in labour, late for flight, etc. Also if you're driving a vehicle you own you're already not among the poorest folks out there.

I agree with your first point, but:

> Also if you're driving a vehicle you own you're already not among the poorest folks out there.

Is an incorrect notion. Poor people don't not drive (how could they not, to drive across the city from their not-served-by-public-transit residence to their minimum-wage job?), they drive shitty cars. Certainly, I owned a vehicle out of necessity when a $40 expense would have been unthinkable for me. That's half a days' wages for many people. 2.5% of your month's income is a LOT, especially after spending half of it on housing.

Sure, you're correct that the destitute don't own cars, but there's a large swath of the population more well-off than "destitute" but not so well-off as to be able to ever spend $40 on something that is not an absolute necessity.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#178

Post by dredmorbius » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 2:27 PM UTC

harryh wrote: post #172

dalbasal wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a 1st principles economic rationale that agrees with you. In a nutshell, you need to get down to the "utility" concept. It's used (for example) to theoretically prove/support the idea that free exchange is always beneficial for both parties. Putting prices onto otherwise unrestricted resources likewise optimizes for utility, especially if there are tragedy of the commons issues. The catch is that uti…

I would like to see some less idealistic economists take over on these issues. One interesting option is creating a fake "currency" for fast lanes. If poor people don't have enough money, then we should give them money instead of fake currency. Giving them fake currency reduces utility. If we give them money they can buy whatever they want/need the most. If we give them scrip that can only be used on one thing then t…

If it is some fake currency, say, HOV-credits, that is distributed on a monthly basis, equally, to everyone, then to a first approximation, you're providing for equivalence in capacity to pay. You can choose to spend, or not spend, your HOV-credits, on any given day.

This also offers the opportunity for rationing, as it's possible to increase or decrease the allocations based on net usage.

If the credits expire after some time, say a few months, then there's the ability to bank them, but not indefinitely. This is not a form of perpetual wealth accumulation.

The argument could be made for either making the credits transferable, so that those less wealthy in other regards could sell them for other units of trade, or not, and/or to set limits on such transactions.

All of this occurs independent of actual currency, though there would be an overall budget to the programme.

And it accomplishes the goal of setting an opportunity cost to highway travel, and congestion, which could itself be varied according to circumstances (higher charges at peak hours / during high-congestion events, lower off-peak or when uncongested).

Then there's the question of interactions with alternative transit, telecommute, or similar schemes.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#179

Post by dredmorbius » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 2:29 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #158

dalbasal wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a 1st principles economic rationale that agrees with you. In a nutshell, you need to get down to the "utility" concept. It's used (for example) to theoretically prove/support the idea that free exchange is always beneficial for both parties. Putting prices onto otherwise unrestricted resources likewise optimizes for utility, especially if there are tragedy of the commons issues. The catch is that uti…

> On top of all that, roads are not "full" markets. This is not a free market solution. You can add a price system. but you don't have supply side effects. The solution is to auction road capacity and use the auction proceeds to fund maintenance of that road and construction of others. Besides being vastly more efficient (from a market perspective) than an arbitrary fixed rate, it also means that resources are alloca…

How do you propose to run an auction on autos entering a given roadway?

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#180

Post by harryh » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 2:34 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #178

harryh wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to see some less idealistic economists take over on these issues. One interesting option is creating a fake "currency" for fast lanes. If poor people don't have enough money, then we should give them money instead of fake currency. Giving them fake currency reduces utility. If we give them money they can buy whatever they want/need the most. If we give them scrip that can only be used on one thing then t…

If it is some fake currency, say, HOV-credits, that is distributed on a monthly basis, equally, to everyone, then to a first approximation, you're providing for equivalence in capacity to pay. You can choose to spend, or not spend, your HOV-credits, on any given day. This also offers the opportunity for rationing, as it's possible to increase or decrease the allocations based on net usage. If the credits expire after…

1) If your roads are being overused you can easily ration that by raising the dollar price.

2) What is wrong with wealth accumulation? If credit recipients would rather do that than drive on roads they should be able to do so. They's how they get less poor!

3) If they credits are transferable then you are effectively giving people money. Just in an ass-backwards and overly confusing way.