$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology • Hacker News Board

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#41

Post by rdtsc » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 6:13 AM UTC

donatj wrote: post #27

ACow_Adonis wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they not have e-tags, cameras and registrations in this part of the world? I genuinely ask, since my assumption when using toll roads here is that the fine would find you pretty much as soon as you use the road...marginal errors and bugs aside.

Do you need a tag to carpool where you are? Here in MN you do not, so it makes the HOV difficult to enforce, particularly because our Supreme Court decided you cannot be ticketed by camera. You basically have to have a cop car come up beside you.

You're supposed to have it now to get on this highway. Before there was no toll on it but it was all HOV-only during certain times of day. Now it is HOV or single drivers can pay apparently up to $40 use it too. Other roads in the area have manned toll plazas which accept cash.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#42

Post by ravar » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 6:14 AM UTC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catastrophe_theory I believe in the context of these road discussions its important to understand the math behind the usage of roads. Roads become less efficient, in terms of people per hour, the more people use them. While restricting access may be unfair it also creates value by getting cars off the road faster than what would have happened otherwise.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#43

Post by foota » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 6:15 AM UTC

ACow_Adonis wrote: post #13

Someone1234 wrote: post #3

Ignoring the morals for a second, with tolls that high and difficulty identifying which vehicles qualify for a HOV exemption, I wonder how many days of tolls a single ticket is and likelihood of being caught? Let's say a ticket is $150. If the toll is $6 then you're likely better off paying the toll as you're likely to be caught at least once every 25 days. At $40 they'd need to catch you at least once a week for you…

Do they not have e-tags, cameras and registrations in this part of the world? I genuinely ask, since my assumption when using toll roads here is that the fine would find you pretty much as soon as you use the road...marginal errors and bugs aside.

I think the issue here is that you are allowed to enter free when carpooling.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#44

Post by maxxxxx » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 6:15 AM UTC

freetime2 wrote: post #40

maxxxxx wrote: post #37

My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them (I make six figures but I doubt I would ever pay $40 for a toll. I would need much more money). These are also often the most influential people so they may think that everything is OK because they can afford the toll and never suffer in traffic. I think the same is happening with health care. Most people in Congress hav…

I'm curious how they use the money from the $40 toll. If, for example, they used the money to improve roads and other public transportation options so that everyone on average gets where they need to go faster, then that ought to make everyone happy. Or else just divide up the revenue and mail everyone in the state a check at the end of the year. That would make me less angry about the fact that other people are able…

Money is fungible. Even if the toll goes to transportation they will just cut that amount from the regular budget. Sending out a check to everybody would be fine but that ain't gonna happen...

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#45

Post by rdtsc » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 6:19 AM UTC

mnm1 wrote: post #12

Someone1234 wrote: post #3

Ignoring the morals for a second, with tolls that high and difficulty identifying which vehicles qualify for a HOV exemption, I wonder how many days of tolls a single ticket is and likelihood of being caught? Let's say a ticket is $150. If the toll is $6 then you're likely better off paying the toll as you're likely to be caught at least once every 25 days. At $40 they'd need to catch you at least once a week for you…

I think the likelihood of getting caught is close to 100% each day. HOV policing is an extremely high priority in the DC area and because of dedicated highways like this, also extremely easy and profitable for police. Also, I believe fines start around $250 and quickly move to $1000. There is a whole informal system of carpooling called "slugs" that works with the system. That'd be your best bet. Or, at $70 round tri…

> hire someone to wait around for 8 hours on minimum wage and still get off cheaper. $7.50 x 8 = $60.

Hah. If slug lines wren't a thing, it would be a startup idea - "hire a perma-slug". They go to work with you, file papers and bring you coffee or maybe they get to hang out in museums during the day. Then you go home in the evening with them.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#46

Post by bsder » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 6:23 AM UTC

divanvisagie wrote: post #35

JauntyHatAngle wrote: post #29

I mean, one of the problems with tolls is that it is another form of taxing that has a bigger impact the lower income you have. Without getting into an ideological discussion, having surge pricing on tolls would contribute to a minor divide in class. In Australia this is a current topic, as (in Sydney specifically) there was a recent controversial highway widening which has been funded by tolls and constructed by a p…

Ive seen multiple sources say that widening roads only makes the problem worse yet in this article and in your comment it seems like the "solution" people are going for. That leaves me wondering; Are these sources not sound or are the people in charge of transport morons?

Define "makes the problem worse".

More lanes, in networking terms, improves throughput but doesn't improve latency.

More lanes moves more cars. That's fairly straightforward.

More lanes doesn't improve the time of an individual commute on the road or cut down on congestion of the road.

People have a fixed annoyance level, and congestion will increase until that annoyance level equilibrium is reached again.

The only time more lanes genuinely improves things is when the extra lanes suddenly means that the road now has more capacity than required to carry the traffic level it sees.

Normally, the cost required to add that many lanes is sufficiently prohibitive that such a situation almost never occurs.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#47

Post by mjevans » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 6:28 AM UTC

iaw wrote: post #2

> "The real reason there's sticker shock is that the real cost of road transportation is hidden from most voters. Gas tax money goes to states and the US Department of Transportation which flows back as what seems like free federal money to build a lot of roads. Meanwhile, every transit project has to scrimp for funds..." "...estimated that tolls would have to be at least $41 to pay off the costs of construction." A…

A lack of urban planning.

    * Not enough family sized units in the city (drive down cost with supply).
    * Insufficient quality of life in building codes. (Noise, smell, clean air, green spaces)
    * Lack of vertical density;
      This is begging for Cave of Steel like results complete with indoor parks and atriums.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#48

Post by khedoros1 » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 6:32 AM UTC

ShabbosGoy wrote: post #19

thisisit wrote: post #11

> To many drivers' surprise, though, the tolls during rush hour were high, hitting $34.50 Monday morning and reaching $40 Tuesday. Is this like "surge pricing" on tolls? I thought most of the tolls are fixed to allow people know in advance what they must pay. If it increases based on demand, I think people will get mad. I think the psychology, if any, need not go towards the two choices. But rather what people though…

Not sure how it works in VA. I know in SoCal, you are metered by distance, and you can calculate your own tolls. It has nothing to do with traffic congestion.

Tolls on parts of the 91 change with traffic congestion. Probably some others too, but that's the one I'm familiar with.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#49

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 6:33 AM UTC

thisisit wrote: post #11

> To many drivers' surprise, though, the tolls during rush hour were high, hitting $34.50 Monday morning and reaching $40 Tuesday. Is this like "surge pricing" on tolls? I thought most of the tolls are fixed to allow people know in advance what they must pay. If it increases based on demand, I think people will get mad. I think the psychology, if any, need not go towards the two choices. But rather what people though…

[deleted]

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#50

Post by jessriedel » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 6:42 AM UTC

mfgmfg wrote: post #16

jessriedel wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Large public construction projects are vastly more expensive (in real dollars) today than in Eisenhower's.

Will they last proportionally as long?

No idea and I'm certainly not claiming that. The reasons for the dramatic increase in costs in the US is not well understood by academics.