Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it? • Hacker News Board

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#461

Post by mantas » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 4:54 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #411

mantas wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well known technocrats frequently raise because of being good on politics/charisma/etc, rather than their technical skill which sometime can be average at best. On top of that, pure and legitimate technocrats frequently are so deep in their fields they don't notice side effects to other fields. Politics are about making the whole system work, not about advancing one single field. It's easy to optimise a society for a…

The economic drain of welfare spending is often overestimated. The IRS for example shifts a lot of money from A > B, but it does not cost a lot of money to do that shift. Mostly what changes is who is allocating resources, not the total number of resources to allocate.

Which is technocratically correct. But on the other hand, welfare may enable freeriders. Who are fully capable to make a living themselves, but choose handouts.

Of course, next step is that welfare to freeriders is cheaper for the society than freeriders turning into criminals. But even with welfare there're criminals and not all freeriders are criminally minded either.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#462

Post by jrs95 » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 4:55 PM UTC

Personally I like the conspiracy theory that the government likes using drug money to fund black ops. The less crazy but somewhat similar explanations are that institutions which enforce criminalization are resistant to change and don’t want to lose funding, and a large portion of the population still believes war on drugs propaganda.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#463

Post by rusk » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 4:58 PM UTC

saladeen wrote: post #414

rusk wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't 'hurrrr' anything. His indiscretions are widely known. As are Bill Clinton's.

You're avoiding my point. But that's ok.

What kind of point could a 'hurrr'-type statement ever be making.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#464

Post by repsilat » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 5:02 PM UTC

andrenth wrote: post #263

daemin wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it does, Australia. That's the prime example of fewer guns = fewer deaths.

Australia also had reduced number of gun-unrelated deaths. In fact the percent reduction in those cases was larger than the reduction of gun deaths. So the stricter gun laws can't be considered the sole explanation for fewer deaths.

I don't have a horse in this race, but this argument seems to do double-duty:

> "Violent crime without firearms went down, maybe it was just people getting less violent."

> "Violent crime without firearms went up, people are going to be violent with or without guns."

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#465

Post by abiox » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 5:04 PM UTC

mmjaa wrote: post #422

DanBC wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Crime has seen a huge increase in Britain No, it hasn't. We've seen better recording, different definitions, better detection, and there have been several operations targetting gangs and street violence and weapons. Importantly: police recorded crime statistics are not reliable, and so we don't use them in the UK. We use the ONS, which doesn't rely on police recording. > "Knife crime also increased by 24% with 12,0…

>knife laws Solve nothing.

what do you mean?

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#466

Post by Zak » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 5:07 PM UTC

exelius wrote: post #406

belorn wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> amok runs with guns This is the problem when discussing political issues like gun control. Gun related crimes has shown correlation with gun ownership laws. Gun accidents is naturally correlated to gun ownership. Mass public shootings however do not when adjusted for the population, but it draws so much political attention so it always get put into the discussion regardless if it match the data. Gun accidents is al…

The big tragedy with the widespread availability of firearms is suicide. Guns are a quick and easy way to end it all, where if you had to search out a tall building for 5 minutes the suicidal urge would subside. Anyone who has dealt with depression can tell you how this works. The suicidal urge doesn't last very long, but guns are waaaaaaay too convenient. Guns are far from the only way to kill yourself, but their wi…

When Australia implemented its tighter gun control and gun buyback in the late 1990s, suicide dipped briefly, but recovered and surpassed the previous level shortly after. Suicide by shooting was largely replaced by hanging.

The theory sounds right, but it doesn't look like the data supports it.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#467

Post by loeg » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 5:09 PM UTC

gt_ wrote: post #67

loeg wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dealers are fine (after all, consumers aren't expected to grow it all themselves); the problem is the flow of money back to the cartels.

Maybe this is nitpicking, but I’d rather see more opportunity for small businesses operating in the honest open than for black market operations. As with a lot of the convo here, the idea is a hollistically better society. Black markets create a lot of tangential issues.

By "dealer" I am referring to a purveyor of drugs. Not specifically legal or illegal. Ideally they would operate legally, but that's currently impossible under federal law.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#468

Post by joshuaheard » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 5:09 PM UTC

IgorPartola wrote: post #392

toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

I don’t know. Republicans had warned us that legalizing gay marriage would lead to widespread acceptance of pedophiles. And look now only a couple of years later the Republicans are fully supporting an alleged pedophile who is running for Senate. If you read that as more of a threat than a warning it all makes sense :)

Pedophilia is an attraction to pre-pubescent girls, under the age of 13. Judge Moore is accused of relations with women ages 16 to 22, with one girl 14 years old. The age of consent to sex in Alabama is 16. Thus, Judge Moore is not a pedophile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore_sexual_abuse_allegat...

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#469

Post by loeg » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 5:11 PM UTC

pixl97 wrote: post #442

loeg wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dealers are fine (after all, consumers aren't expected to grow it all themselves); the problem is the flow of money back to the cartels.

Legal vs illegal dealers are two different things. A legal dealer/grower is expected to follow certain laws and provide a safe product. In return for a high demand product they have to follow licensing rules and have a safe product. An illegal dealer has the incentive to make as much money as fast as possible because of the risk of future prosecution. It is more beneficial for the illegal dealer to switch you from $1…

They might have that incentive, but there is a reputation aspect I think you're ignoring. Most illegal marijuana dealers I've met were just interested in selling weed to anyone who wanted to buy it to pay rent, tuition, or support their own use. They operated under fairly low margins for a small business and essentially didn't price in the legal risk. One guy I know only made about $10-12k/yr in profit.

None sold heroin, as far as I know.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#470

Post by Zak » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 5:15 PM UTC

LoonyBalloony wrote: post #451

exelius wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big tragedy with the widespread availability of firearms is suicide. Guns are a quick and easy way to end it all, where if you had to search out a tall building for 5 minutes the suicidal urge would subside. Anyone who has dealt with depression can tell you how this works. The suicidal urge doesn't last very long, but guns are waaaaaaay too convenient. Guns are far from the only way to kill yourself, but their wi…

How would you structure something like state sanctioned assisted suicide given this "window" of irrationality? We have a waiting period here in the USA when you purchase a firearm from a store. Is the waiting period not long enough in your opinion?

Federal law does not require a waiting period, only a background check. Last time I bought a firearm from a dealer, the background check took about 5 minutes. By law, up to 3 days are allowed for the background check, but it usually takes only minutes.

There had been a Federal waiting period, but it was ruled unconstitutional in 1997. Some states have waiting periods. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Instant_Criminal_Back...