Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market • Hacker News Board

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#211

Post by wmeredith » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 6:38 PM UTC

code4tee wrote: post #35

A lot of that debt is funding bloated administrative costs and other overhead that doesn’t directly make for a “better” education, just a “more expensive” education. Fixing this problem starts with getting costs at universities under control. Taking on debt to fund education isn’t inherently bad, but having that debt back a bloated higher education sector is terrible.

As I posted elsewhere in this thread...

The majority cost increase (65%)[1] of higher education in the US over the last couple decades is due to a systematic defunding of government support for schools. It would be nice if we started investing in our country's education again. [1]2015 Study by the New York Federal Reserve - https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/media/research/staff...

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#212

Post by 8note » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 6:38 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #144

mdorazio wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstood. He/she said "default", not "forgive". As in, the people with the loans walk away from them and take the massive credit hit that comes with that, likely by filing for bankruptcy. The issue is that student loans are uniquely sticky, so a person with student loans today basically can't get out of them. If it were possible, many people would choose to file for bankruptcy to release the loans, t…

Bankruptcy is yet another thing though. And I agree, by the way, the laws as written are unfair and don't help anyone. But bankruptcy isn't the ability to "walk away" from a loan. You literally need to be bankrupt: you can't hold any other assets beyond the statutory minums. Most people suffering with student debt aren't literally destitute (obviously some are), they just have a cash flow problem. Bankruptcy won't he…

I doubt that Drumpf was ever destitute when declaring bankruptcy.

Students get off easy as far as assets go. they don't have any yet, so there's nothing to get rid of.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#213

Post by sol_remmy » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 6:41 PM UTC

martin_bech wrote: post #131

jedberg wrote: post #22

There is definitely an education bubble. It's way too easy to get money for college. You hear a lot of stories about the increasing costs of college and crushing debt on graduation, but you don't hear a lot of stories of "I wanted to go to college but couldn't get a loan". Almost everyone gets approved, regardless of their future ability to pay it back. We need a fundamental shift in the way college is paid for. Some…

We have a system like that. Its called taxes and free education. Everyone is offered free college education, including basic living expenses. In return everyone pays a litle more in taxes. And those who choose college, often earn more, and then pay more in taxes. (Im from Denmark)

Maybe you should focus on not falling too far behind Finland, the Netherlands and Sweden first. I don't think I've ever heard of a Danish tech company. Even tiny Iceland has EVE Online.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#214

Post by rjbwork » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 6:45 PM UTC

vec wrote: post #198

ConceptJunkie wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with subsidizing college in any way, including the current student loan system is that it encourages people to go to college whether it makes sense or not, and as several people have mentioned in this discussion, in a lot of cases, it doesn't make sense. Anyone who is properly motivated should be able to go to college, but when I hear cries for a free college education, I can imagine that that would stimu…

Yeah, but isn't that also the "problem" with subsidizing K-12 public school? One doesn't need a high school education to wait tables or stock shelves, and most apprenticeships and trade schools could probably be started several years earlier without issue. We used to have this Enlightenment ideal of a Liberal Arts Education. It served as job training, sure, but it also tried to make its recipients better citizens and…

Was just talking with my boss about how they do it in Germany.

Essentially they do heavy tracking, if you can't cut it in the college track, you get put into blue collar training and apprentice programs. This is why they are such an industrial powerhouse still - they have a well prepared white collar and blue collar work force.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#215

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 6:46 PM UTC

cloakandswagger wrote: post #142

simias wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A similar number of people" developing a brand of hero worship for scientists? Maybe I'm hugely biased but that doesn't really mirror what I see online and elsewhere. Are you telling me that for every climate change denier, for every anti-vaxxer, for every creationist, for every chemtrail/tap water/moon landing/flat earth conspiracy theorist there's a rabid scientist who elevates the current scientific consensus to…

The "March for Science" that happened earlier this year had estimated attendance of 1.07 million. Now go to Google Images and search for "March for Science". Nearly every sign I see is either political in nature, elevating science to a level of religion/infallibility, or casting science as a fashion/meme ("Scientific is the new chic", "Science isn't wrong", "In science we trust").

[deleted]

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#216

Post by sorrymate » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 6:47 PM UTC

jartelt wrote: post #60

yegle wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the point of student loan is to grant it to anyone regardless of if they can repay? If the loan is granted by looking at the student's future potential to repay, students would prefer majors/colleges with higher chance of getting a student loan.

If the word "loan" is in the name of the financial product, you are expected to repay. At some point we need to be upfront with high school graduate and tell them it is a bad idea to go study art history at a $40k a year no-name private college.

If the choice is between not going to college vs. earning a degree, statistically you earn more simply by having a college degree, regardless of the major. Bachelor Degree holders, on average, earn a million dollars more during their life time than those who only have a high school diploma. Even if you are accounting for lost earning potential, cost of tuition, supplies etc... your still talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars more earned than if you were to not achieve a degree. If you are talking in relation to going to university for a STEM degree vs. going to school for art history, you could certainly argue that STEM will will always make more. But I would still recommend young people go to school over not. Even if it is something 'useless'. Either way you slice it, the data indicates that encouraging youth to go to college is still worth it. Even with how expensive college is.

Median Lifetime Earnings: https://www2.ed.gov/policy/highered/reg/hearulemaking/2011/c...

Cost of School and Lost Earnings vs High School Grad: https://trends.collegeboard.org/sites/default/files/educatio...

BLS on Pay by Education https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2015/more-education-still-means...

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#217

Post by vkou » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 6:49 PM UTC

wutangson1 wrote: post #199

ConceptJunkie wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with subsidizing college in any way, including the current student loan system is that it encourages people to go to college whether it makes sense or not, and as several people have mentioned in this discussion, in a lot of cases, it doesn't make sense. Anyone who is properly motivated should be able to go to college, but when I hear cries for a free college education, I can imagine that that would stimu…

where did this concept of college as a 4 year vacation come from? You have to show up to class, study, be diligent, and apply effective time management skills. Otherwise, you'll be put on academic probation and then kicked out. Even for those people who seem to have a knack for finding lax professors and classes, coasting is not necessarily a college student thing.

I coasted through five years of college, graduating with a CS and Math joint-major, three internships, and 20 more credit-hours then I needed. I did the bare minimum of studying, and applied little to no time management skills (Unless you count the occasional half-assed assignment finished on Sunday night.) I spent more time worrying about World of Warcraft, then I did about the possibility of ending up on academic probation.

Compared to a 9-5 job, yeah, college was a five year vacation. There's no boss that will have nasty conversations with you, if your work isn't done, if you fall behind on assignments too much, you can just choose to not do them, and spend an extra hour or two cramming for the midterm + final. Nobody cares if you sleep through a class, or two, or seven.

... Obviously if you went to a difficult school, or don't have the social safety net of living with your parents, or you had to work full-time to pay for school, your experiences might be different.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#218

Post by a2tech » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 6:50 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #22

There is definitely an education bubble. It's way too easy to get money for college. You hear a lot of stories about the increasing costs of college and crushing debt on graduation, but you don't hear a lot of stories of "I wanted to go to college but couldn't get a loan". Almost everyone gets approved, regardless of their future ability to pay it back. We need a fundamental shift in the way college is paid for. Some…

I wanted to go to college, but couldn't get a loan. Its easy for people who's parents already participate fully in the credit market-but for people like myself who's parents are poor and don't use credit for anything, it wasn't an option.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#219

Post by rxhernandez » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 6:52 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #22

There is definitely an education bubble. It's way too easy to get money for college. You hear a lot of stories about the increasing costs of college and crushing debt on graduation, but you don't hear a lot of stories of "I wanted to go to college but couldn't get a loan". Almost everyone gets approved, regardless of their future ability to pay it back. We need a fundamental shift in the way college is paid for. Some…

>but you don't hear a lot of stories of "I wanted to go to college but couldn't get a loan".

I suspect that it's either because you're not listening or people aren't talking about it. I had 3 years of on the job engineering experience and an established, good credit history when I got denied a loan for my last year of undergrad at a state school. Mind you this was fairly recently and my only loan for school I applied for ever. I could be the freak accident but it doesn't seem all that probable.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#220

Post by robrenaud » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 6:54 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #93

godelski wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I really see is that we've dug ourselves a big hole. The safety net created for the banks were done to ensure that everyone could get a loan. Banks were "worried" that people would default on their student loans and run away with the money, even though this hasn't happened or is really rare. There was an unfortunate side effect that this incentivized banks to give out riskier loans. Couple that with telli…

I'm working with an idea that you can go bankrupt on student loans, but in doing so you lose the degree - including all rights to a job that might use the degree. There are a ton of things I haven't figure out (follow my post history for more detail on what I have)

It happens.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/business/student-loans-li...

Seems bad for both the loan provider (at least in short term) and the student.