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Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

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Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#141

Post by throwawayjava »

bluGill wrote: post #83
umbrellathorn wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for a useless degree they'll never use I went to school for such a degree. While I don't use it in my day to day now, I still consider it priceless. There's some inherent value added to a person who pursues to study a bit of humanities, history, philosophy and art in college apart from their major. Scholarly work really helps shape the way you look at life for the better. Part of this is that you really understand…

There is the problem. I have full respect for "useless" degrees. If people want one then they should get one. However since it is "useless" you should not be mortgaging your future to get it. Get a "real job" first and pay for the degree out of your pocket, perhaps taking night classes. As a member of society I need you to take care of yourself. You are a burden on society if you don't have a productive job paying yo…

These discussions often become "either/or", ignoring the possibility of studying STEM and other pre-professional fields while also receiving a thorough introduction to the humanities.

You can study Computer Science while also learning a bit of art history, or architecture, or psychology, or the sciences, or business, or...

And doing so might even make you more valuable to your employer, to yourself/your family, and to society.

> You are a burden on society if you don't have a productive job paying your own way... We believe is education required to be productive, so we subsidize education to get more productive people in society.

This mode of thinking is a great way to churn out lots of well-behaved, competent corporate employees. From this viewpoint, it follows that the path to the upper class is reserved for the already-rich.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#142

Post by cloakandswagger »

simias wrote: post #108
cloakandswagger wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have too many people thinking it's okay to discredit scientists and scholars because they don't understand how research works. And a similar number of people who elevate science to the level of religion, marching in its name and developing a brand of hero worship for scientists when they too know nothing at all about the scientific process. Both are forms of anti-intellectualism that are growing in our polarized…

"A similar number of people" developing a brand of hero worship for scientists? Maybe I'm hugely biased but that doesn't really mirror what I see online and elsewhere. Are you telling me that for every climate change denier, for every anti-vaxxer, for every creationist, for every chemtrail/tap water/moon landing/flat earth conspiracy theorist there's a rabid scientist who elevates the current scientific consensus to…

The "March for Science" that happened earlier this year had estimated attendance of 1.07 million.

Now go to Google Images and search for "March for Science". Nearly every sign I see is either political in nature, elevating science to a level of religion/infallibility, or casting science as a fashion/meme ("Scientific is the new chic", "Science isn't wrong", "In science we trust").

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#143

Post by raphaelj »

etr-strike wrote: post #99

When the next recession strikes, interest rates have no place to go but into negative territory. The rates will be either explicitly negative, or effectively negative (inflation higher than interest rates). When that happens, bitcoin will be the only safe haven in the world to protect your wealth. The bubble people will be changing their tune very quick.

What a wonderful idea, putting your savings in an highly volatile currency! Have you ever heard about people buying gold to store value?

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#144

Post by ajross »

mdorazio wrote: post #92
ajross wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense, but that's ridiculous. There's money owed here. The schools already got it, the banks are owed it. Someone needs to make that right, you can't just "forgive" debt without some party taking a huge hit. Which one? I'm guessing the developed version of your proposal would be for the government to step in and make the payments to the banks. But.. that's ridiculous. If you want to throw around government money…

I think you misunderstood. He/she said "default", not "forgive". As in, the people with the loans walk away from them and take the massive credit hit that comes with that, likely by filing for bankruptcy. The issue is that student loans are uniquely sticky, so a person with student loans today basically can't get out of them. If it were possible, many people would choose to file for bankruptcy to release the loans, t…

Bankruptcy is yet another thing though. And I agree, by the way, the laws as written are unfair and don't help anyone.

But bankruptcy isn't the ability to "walk away" from a loan. You literally need to be bankrupt: you can't hold any other assets beyond the statutory minums. Most people suffering with student debt aren't literally destitute (obviously some are), they just have a cash flow problem. Bankruptcy won't help them.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#145

Post by kelukelugames »

murph-almighty wrote: post #38
jedberg wrote: post #22

There is definitely an education bubble. It's way too easy to get money for college. You hear a lot of stories about the increasing costs of college and crushing debt on graduation, but you don't hear a lot of stories of "I wanted to go to college but couldn't get a loan". Almost everyone gets approved, regardless of their future ability to pay it back. We need a fundamental shift in the way college is paid for. Some…

> you'd probably see a lot more STEM degrees and a lot fewer of everything else I honestly think art schools are going to start running into problems convincing people it's a good idea to pay 60k a year for minimal ROI. My cousin wants to go into stage drama, and I don't want to tell her to not pursue her dream, but I think it's a lot to ask her to put herself in debt for years for a piece of paper that says she can…

What is the EV for a drama degree? Some actors make millions in their 20s. Probably .01% of actors?

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#146

Post by simias »

smallnamespace wrote: post #84
cloakandswagger wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have too many people thinking it's okay to discredit scientists and scholars because they don't understand how research works. And a similar number of people who elevate science to the level of religion, marching in its name and developing a brand of hero worship for scientists when they too know nothing at all about the scientific process. Both are forms of anti-intellectualism that are growing in our polarized…

I've seen this form of scientism playing out frequently on Reddit and other Internet forums lately. Discussion will be about some piece of controversial research, e.g. GMOs or vaccines. People who want to discuss the merits of the research are shouted down by what I can only describe as 'science fanbois' -- anything that is 'against science' must be wrong. They're missing the inherent tension in science between a rec…

I don't think it's really about science, it's more about reddit. You'll find the same thing on any discussion on any somewhat popular subreddit regardless of the subject. There's almost always a reddit hivemind sanctioned Good Answer to any issue and if you stray away from the Good Path you'll get buried in downvotes, regardless of how much effort you put into arguing your point. Conversely if you make a completely useless one-liner comment agreeing with the Good Answer then you'll be showered with upvotes and propelled to the top of the page.

Upvote/downvotes are de-facto agree/disagree buttons on reddit. As a forum it's completely useless to discuss anything beyond cat pictures and funny gifs.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#147

Post by ktta »

jartelt wrote: post #43
murph-almighty wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a minimum, a comparison of the default rate between the two would be nice.

The article does compare them (albeit without much detail). “Delinquency rates on student loans are much higher than those on auto loans or mortgages, due to loose student loan underwriting standards, the unsecured nature of student debt, and the inability to charge off non-performing student loans in bankruptcy,” Goldman Sachs Group Inc. analysts Marty Young and Lotfi Karoui wrote in a note Tuesday. “The substantial…

If the default risk is borne by the US Treasury, then what risk do we have in general?

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#148

Post by dv_dt »

martin_bech wrote: post #131
jedberg wrote: post #22

There is definitely an education bubble. It's way too easy to get money for college. You hear a lot of stories about the increasing costs of college and crushing debt on graduation, but you don't hear a lot of stories of "I wanted to go to college but couldn't get a loan". Almost everyone gets approved, regardless of their future ability to pay it back. We need a fundamental shift in the way college is paid for. Some…

We have a system like that. Its called taxes and free education. Everyone is offered free college education, including basic living expenses. In return everyone pays a litle more in taxes. And those who choose college, often earn more, and then pay more in taxes. (Im from Denmark)

And, I would think that running the system that way is actually cheaper and more efficient than the US way where we seem to be moving towards individually accounting for every dollar of education for payback - all while the overall system spirals out of cost controls. It's much simpler to supply gov't budgets direct to public schools with oversight for spending.

Vs open loans which little cost accountability. (well accountability via students for which this is the most extensive, longest term, financially complex, with highly variable ROI purchase they will have made in their life so far...)

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#149

Post by exolymph »

nsporillo wrote: post #58

As a current student and one who will graduate with roughly $60k in student debt, after scholarships and grants - I often question the legitimacy of the driving factors in increased tuition. Most would say the volume of administrators has ballooned due to the increasing number of services universities now provide for the students. Better and more services offered to students should benefit quality of life. Does the e…

"Legitimacy" is not really a factor when it comes to prices. Underlying production cost will put a floor on the price, absent subsidies, but the final dollar amount offered to the customer is a response to supply and demand. Universities are charging more because people will pay more — easy up-front money through loans is part of the reason why.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#150

Post by SamReidHughes »

umbrellathorn wrote: post #51
jedberg wrote: post #22

There is definitely an education bubble. It's way too easy to get money for college. You hear a lot of stories about the increasing costs of college and crushing debt on graduation, but you don't hear a lot of stories of "I wanted to go to college but couldn't get a loan". Almost everyone gets approved, regardless of their future ability to pay it back. We need a fundamental shift in the way college is paid for. Some…

> for a useless degree they'll never use I went to school for such a degree. While I don't use it in my day to day now, I still consider it priceless. There's some inherent value added to a person who pursues to study a bit of humanities, history, philosophy and art in college apart from their major. Scholarly work really helps shape the way you look at life for the better. Part of this is that you really understand…

Maybe you could spend one year doing it instead of four.
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