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Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

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Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#81

Post by kalleboo »

kemiller wrote: post #76
wavefunction wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it funny that these activists focus on foreign companies selling in France but not paying taxes on those sales? Seems perfectly understandable to me why foreign firms behaving like Apple would be the target.

The French were primary architects of the EU. It's a bit rich to complain now that Ireland and Apple are taking advantage of its rules.

The EU was created as a democratic institution, it's not strange at all to protest its laws, how they're implemented, or how they're followed.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#82

Post by valuearb »

wavefunction wrote: post #60
walshemj wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True but as some one I know said about the 35 hour working "funny how its always the non French companies that got raided"

Why is it funny that these activists focus on foreign companies selling in France but not paying taxes on those sales? Seems perfectly understandable to me why foreign firms behaving like Apple would be the target.

Apple pays every franc of tax it owes France on its sales there, no one has ever shown otherwise.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#83

Post by valuearb »

beloch wrote: post #9

I really respect this kind of activism. Fair taxation certainly isn't the sexiest topic to hold a protest about, but it is actually a huge fundamental issue for us today. Individuals, and Corporations we treat as legal individuals, produce value for our society in several ways, and paying taxes is one of them. When wealthy individuals or large corporations dodge taxes via off-shore firms, etc. they erode the basis of…

Apple pays every franc of tax it owes France on its sales there, no one has ever shown otherwise.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#84

Post by Retra »

threeseed wrote: post #67
trgv wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any reason people can't engage in both kinds of protest? Also, I think the chances of Apple deciding to pay its taxes due to this kind of pressure are at least as high as politicians in X country closing loopholes.

People can protest all they like. It's just not going to achieve a single thing. Macron isn't directly targeted so where is the political pressure for him to change anything in France ? It's exactly like Occupy Wall Street where people protested and camped outside the likes of JP Morgan. And what was the outcome of all of that ? Nothing.

The outcome of all that is that even insignificant people like you know that it happened and upset people. The alternative of protests that never happened certainly don't have your (or anybody else's) attention in nearly the same way, obviously.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#85

Post by seanmcdirmid »

realusername wrote: post #79
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

R&D is not a cost center, it is widely regarded as a profit center in a tech company. By your definition, Microsoft (assuming they aren’t selling hardware) should be paying all of its profits to where its software is sold vs. where it is produced, because it’s entire operation is just a cost center! Like it or not, taxation internationally is currently based on where value is produced which is why... > Under the curr…

Apple is heavily biased on the subject so I would not take their PR at face value. It's in their best interest to pretend that all the value is created in the US in order to reduce taxes. Let's say I can recreate the new IPhone with only 1/1000 of the budget of Apple's R&D, would I make a profit? Yes of course I would. If Apple could create their new IPhone for only 100$ of total R&D, be sure they would do it. On the…

If Apple was able to realize their R&D value income taxes in France rather than the USA on all French sales, they would probably pay less, not more, than what they are now.

At anyrate, value is well defined across the world. If it was define the way you want, the countries would see all their exporters as freeloaders, not paying for the infrastructure that is realizing their profit. Heck, places like Switzerland and Singapore wouldn’t be able to survive.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#86

Post by hux_ »

beloch wrote: post #9

I really respect this kind of activism. Fair taxation certainly isn't the sexiest topic to hold a protest about, but it is actually a huge fundamental issue for us today. Individuals, and Corporations we treat as legal individuals, produce value for our society in several ways, and paying taxes is one of them. When wealthy individuals or large corporations dodge taxes via off-shore firms, etc. they erode the basis of…

Its not that Apple doesn't care. The over-optimized consumption culture that props up an Apple does not care. We are way past the point of no return. Might as well be standing in front of a giant redwood and yelling at it to change direction.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#87

Post by realusername »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #85
realusername wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is heavily biased on the subject so I would not take their PR at face value. It's in their best interest to pretend that all the value is created in the US in order to reduce taxes. Let's say I can recreate the new IPhone with only 1/1000 of the budget of Apple's R&D, would I make a profit? Yes of course I would. If Apple could create their new IPhone for only 100$ of total R&D, be sure they would do it. On the…

If Apple was able to realize their R&D value income taxes in France rather than the USA on all French sales, they would probably pay less, not more, than what they are now. At anyrate, value is well defined across the world. If it was define the way you want, the countries would see all their exporters as freeloaders, not paying for the infrastructure that is realizing their profit. Heck, places like Switzerland and…

> If Apple was able to realize their R&D value income taxes in France rather than the USA on all French sales, they would probably pay less, not more, than what they are now.

Tax breaks are on R&D, not sales and Apple does not have any R&D in France so I don't follow you...

> At anyrate, value is well defined across the world.

There's no common tax laws across the world so this does not seem to be true.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#88

Post by freedomben »

Retra wrote: post #84
threeseed wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People can protest all they like. It's just not going to achieve a single thing. Macron isn't directly targeted so where is the political pressure for him to change anything in France ? It's exactly like Occupy Wall Street where people protested and camped outside the likes of JP Morgan. And what was the outcome of all of that ? Nothing.

The outcome of all that is that even insignificant people like you know that it happened and upset people. The alternative of protests that never happened certainly don't have your (or anybody else's) attention in nearly the same way, obviously.

I don't disagree, but your comment could be improved by removing the "even insignificant people like you" part. That felt unnecessary.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#89

Post by [deleted] »

humanrebar wrote: post #61
beloch wrote: post #9

I really respect this kind of activism. Fair taxation certainly isn't the sexiest topic to hold a protest about, but it is actually a huge fundamental issue for us today. Individuals, and Corporations we treat as legal individuals, produce value for our society in several ways, and paying taxes is one of them. When wealthy individuals or large corporations dodge taxes via off-shore firms, etc. they erode the basis of…

> I really respect this kind of activism. I'd respect activism advocating for simplified, hard to game tax codes more. I don't think it's really sustainable for the public to get interminably worked up, protesting company after company in order to keep everyone honest. In general, the best solution to corruption is simpler, more transparent systems. Corruption thrives in complexity and arcana. Deals happen in back ro…

[deleted]

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#90

Post by emerged »

hux_ wrote: post #86
beloch wrote: post #9

I really respect this kind of activism. Fair taxation certainly isn't the sexiest topic to hold a protest about, but it is actually a huge fundamental issue for us today. Individuals, and Corporations we treat as legal individuals, produce value for our society in several ways, and paying taxes is one of them. When wealthy individuals or large corporations dodge taxes via off-shore firms, etc. they erode the basis of…

Its not that Apple doesn't care. The over-optimized consumption culture that props up an Apple does not care. We are way past the point of no return. Might as well be standing in front of a giant redwood and yelling at it to change direction.

Of course Apple doesn't care, and the rest that you wrote is also true.
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