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Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

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Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#71

Post by threeseed »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #39
innocentoldguy wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this sort of activism really help? I mean, this isn't an Apple-only issue and if Apple is obeying tax laws, then are they really going to consider paying more just because a small group of people chanted in one of their stores for a while? Even if Apple is breaking the law, isn't it worth putting up with a handful of activists for a few hours if it saves them millions in taxes and makes their investors happy? I…

>Does this sort of activism really help? Yes. It reduces the company's bottom line until they either inflict bad publicity on themselves, sit and cope with it silently, or submit to the demand to pay their lawful taxes. >I think a more effective form of activism would be to flood representatives' offices with requests to change tax laws and to vote for candidates willing to do so. You're getting downvoted because we'…

1) Anyone who thinks this will affect Apple's bottom line is delusional. The negative effects of the publicity pales in comparison to the tax benefits.

2) Protesting your local politicians always works provided you have enough people. You're just not doing a good enough job convincing your fellow citizens. That's how you really effect change.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#72

Post by humanrebar »

baddox wrote: post #27
r3bl wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More would be accomplished by protesting the government that allows certain loopholes. If such a loophole exists, and it's blatantly obvious that you're a dick for using that loophole, yes, that loophole should be fixed. But that doesn't mean you're not a dick for using it in the first place. To put it in another perspective: If there was a loophole that allowed me to kill someone without facing any consequences, y…

It’s relatively easy to argue that murder is immoral even if there was a legal loophole. It’s much more difficult to argue that employing legal methods to reduce your tax burden is immoral.

> It’s much more difficult to argue that employing legal methods to reduce your tax burden is immoral.

I mostly don't care, but for the sake of argument, setting up shell corporations and then saying they made this purchase or that deal for tax reasons isn't exactly being honest.

It reminds me of the "characters" Bunbury and Ernest from Oscar Wilde's "The Importance of Being Earnest":

"""

You have invented a very useful younger brother called Ernest, in order that you may be able to come up to town as often as you like. I have invented an invaluable permanent invalid called Bunbury, in order that I may be able to go down into the country whenever I choose. Bunbury is perfectly invaluable. If it wasn't for Bunbury's extraordinary bad health, for instance, I wouldn't be able to dine with you at Willis's to-night, for I have been really engaged to Aunt Augusta for more than a week.

"""

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#73

Post by downandout »

andmarios wrote: post #31
downandout wrote: post #14

These people are protesting against the wrong entity. Apple followed the tax laws at the time, so they should protest against their government for creating loopholes that can and always will be exploited by those with the resources to do so. Public companies have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profits, which includes taking advantage of any and all available strategies to reduce their ta…

It would seem to me that having activists occupy your stores doesn't work very well toward maximizing your profits.

I don’t think that will matter for a day or two. Honestly, if it became a long-term problem, people would just order online and have their stuff delivered anyway. One way or another, iPhones will still be selling in France.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#74

Post by westiseast »

threeseed wrote: post #62
beloch wrote: post #9

I really respect this kind of activism. Fair taxation certainly isn't the sexiest topic to hold a protest about, but it is actually a huge fundamental issue for us today. Individuals, and Corporations we treat as legal individuals, produce value for our society in several ways, and paying taxes is one of them. When wealthy individuals or large corporations dodge taxes via off-shore firms, etc. they erode the basis of…

Really ? This kind of activism is completely pointless and ignorant. Apple is paying the taxes it is legally responsible to pay. End of story. If you want them to pay more tax then you should be protesting against Macron and the rest of the French government and get the laws changed. Multinational tax avoidance can ONLY be fixed through international cooperation of governments.

Technically the problem isn’t Macron or France - it’s the Irish and Jersey tax loopholes.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#75

Post by mgbmtl »

threeseed wrote: post #62
beloch wrote: post #9

I really respect this kind of activism. Fair taxation certainly isn't the sexiest topic to hold a protest about, but it is actually a huge fundamental issue for us today. Individuals, and Corporations we treat as legal individuals, produce value for our society in several ways, and paying taxes is one of them. When wealthy individuals or large corporations dodge taxes via off-shore firms, etc. they erode the basis of…

Really ? This kind of activism is completely pointless and ignorant. Apple is paying the taxes it is legally responsible to pay. End of story. If you want them to pay more tax then you should be protesting against Macron and the rest of the French government and get the laws changed. Multinational tax avoidance can ONLY be fixed through international cooperation of governments.

The protests are also a way to pressure the government to work on such legislation. A government can only do so much, and it usually prefers to prioritize voting laws that do not annoy their donors.

Also, few journalists would report on the protest otherwise.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#76

Post by kemiller »

wavefunction wrote: post #60
walshemj wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True but as some one I know said about the 35 hour working "funny how its always the non French companies that got raided"

Why is it funny that these activists focus on foreign companies selling in France but not paying taxes on those sales? Seems perfectly understandable to me why foreign firms behaving like Apple would be the target.

The French were primary architects of the EU. It's a bit rich to complain now that Ireland and Apple are taking advantage of its rules.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#77

Post by 131012 »

beloch wrote: post #9

I really respect this kind of activism. Fair taxation certainly isn't the sexiest topic to hold a protest about, but it is actually a huge fundamental issue for us today. Individuals, and Corporations we treat as legal individuals, produce value for our society in several ways, and paying taxes is one of them. When wealthy individuals or large corporations dodge taxes via off-shore firms, etc. they erode the basis of…

I feel some commenters are missing the point that these symbolic protests are only trying to bring the general issue of tax optimization to the public eye. I'm pretty sure no one went there thinking: "Ok let's shout a few slogans and then Apple will apologize and send a billion dollars check to the French government." They most likely chose Apple only because it is an easy target because of the ubiquitous Apple stores.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#78

Post by westiseast »

PrimalDual wrote: post #36

Pardon my ignorance but I thought Apple largely obeyed the law. Shouldn’t these people be protesting the government that fails to tax Apple justly?

Ireland allowed Apple a loophole where they were incorporated there, but non-resident, and therefore no tax. It was a sweetheart deal and Ireland got jobs and investment. The EU said no, wants the back tax to be paid.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#79

Post by realusername »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #63
realusername wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

R&D is a cost center, not a profit center and as you pointed out, you need to sell your products at a higher price to recover that cost. If the value was created on R&D, it would mean that you could manufacture just about anything and it would create profit magically, which is obviously wrong as countless companies fail to monetize products. The value is created at the time you sell the product itself, by demand of c…

R&D is not a cost center, it is widely regarded as a profit center in a tech company. By your definition, Microsoft (assuming they aren’t selling hardware) should be paying all of its profits to where its software is sold vs. where it is produced, because it’s entire operation is just a cost center! Like it or not, taxation internationally is currently based on where value is produced which is why... > Under the curr…

Apple is heavily biased on the subject so I would not take their PR at face value. It's in their best interest to pretend that all the value is created in the US in order to reduce taxes.

Let's say I can recreate the new IPhone with only 1/1000 of the budget of Apple's R&D, would I make a profit? Yes of course I would. If Apple could create their new IPhone for only 100$ of total R&D, be sure they would do it.

On the other hand, ask yourself why there is no Apple Store in a lot of African countries. It's because Apple does not meet the local markets requirements for a store there to be profitable, so they would not get any value out of it.

R&D being a cost center is the reason most of the countries in the world have tax-breaks specifically on R&D and also why the copyright laws are that harsh to prevent ripping of all the value by selling copies of your competitor.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#80

Post by Thorncorona »

golergka wrote: post #49
Thorncorona wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Taking advantage of others (such as lobbying for loopholes) falls under the umbrella. Just because you can dump industrial waste into a river doesn't mean you should. Just because you can steal doesn't mean you should. Just because you can shortchange citizens doesn't mean you should. Yes laws should be passed, I agree, but that doesn't mean we can't also multilaterally a…

If you can do something lawful (which the most emotional if your examples are not) to increase your profits, it is your duty to your shareholders to do so.

Read my full comment please.
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