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Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

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Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#61

Post by humanrebar »

beloch wrote: post #9

I really respect this kind of activism. Fair taxation certainly isn't the sexiest topic to hold a protest about, but it is actually a huge fundamental issue for us today. Individuals, and Corporations we treat as legal individuals, produce value for our society in several ways, and paying taxes is one of them. When wealthy individuals or large corporations dodge taxes via off-shore firms, etc. they erode the basis of…

> I really respect this kind of activism.

I'd respect activism advocating for simplified, hard to game tax codes more.

I don't think it's really sustainable for the public to get interminably worked up, protesting company after company in order to keep everyone honest.

In general, the best solution to corruption is simpler, more transparent systems. Corruption thrives in complexity and arcana. Deals happen in back rooms for a reason.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#62

Post by threeseed »

beloch wrote: post #9

I really respect this kind of activism. Fair taxation certainly isn't the sexiest topic to hold a protest about, but it is actually a huge fundamental issue for us today. Individuals, and Corporations we treat as legal individuals, produce value for our society in several ways, and paying taxes is one of them. When wealthy individuals or large corporations dodge taxes via off-shore firms, etc. they erode the basis of…

Really ? This kind of activism is completely pointless and ignorant.

Apple is paying the taxes it is legally responsible to pay. End of story. If you want them to pay more tax then you should be protesting against Macron and the rest of the French government and get the laws changed. Multinational tax avoidance can ONLY be fixed through international cooperation of governments.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#63

Post by seanmcdirmid »

realusername wrote: post #59
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ridiculous, how would that even work? Profit is “sales - expenses.” So how would Apple account for the R&D in the states, or does Apple France just want to tax them assuming all the inputs don’t exist? That’s why Apple USA sells iPhones to Apple France at some price above hardware production costs. It doesn’t make sense any other way. Value isn’t created on sale, it is only realized as money at that point.

R&D is a cost center, not a profit center and as you pointed out, you need to sell your products at a higher price to recover that cost. If the value was created on R&D, it would mean that you could manufacture just about anything and it would create profit magically, which is obviously wrong as countless companies fail to monetize products. The value is created at the time you sell the product itself, by demand of c…

R&D is not a cost center, it is widely regarded as a profit center in a tech company. By your definition, Microsoft (assuming they aren’t selling hardware) should be paying all of its profits to where its software is sold vs. where it is produced, because it’s entire operation is just a cost center!

Like it or not, taxation internationally is currently based on where value is produced which is why...

> Under the current international tax system, profits are taxed based on where the value is created. The taxes Apple pays to countries around the world are based on that principle. The vast majority of the value in our products is indisputably created in the United States — where we do our design, development, engineering work and much more — so the majority of our taxes are owed to the US.

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2017/11/the-facts-about-apple...

The value is not created at time of sale! Well, some value is created by virtue of the sale itself that go into retail profits, but the store has to pay its suppliers the price they charge regardless of the supplier’s markup. Imagine it’s a department store (Nordstrom’s or whatever) selling LV bags, LV is not charging the department stores just production cost. France in turn is taxing LV on the design value added in France, that tax money isn’t going to China or the USA where the bag is sold. France would be pissed otherwise.

If France wants to tax America’s R&D, then they can change their laws, but the USA isn’t going to be very happy about that, obviously.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#64

Post by humanrebar »

toyg wrote: post #54
21 wrote: post #43

To those saying that Apple has a fiduciary obligation to maximize profits, shouldn't by that logic Apple respect the environment at the minimum required level by law? But on the contrary, Apple highlights in a lot of their presentation how green and environmentally conscious they are, going above and beyond what the laws require: https://www.apple.com/environment/ Maybe because today being seen environmentally consci…

> Maybe because today being seen environmentally conscious makes you more money There is a generational issue as well. Cook (and before him Jobs) grew up in the '70s, when the political upheavals of the '60s had started to rot. The main ideals that survived that age were environmentalism and racial/sexual equality - likely because they could be coupled with aggressive capitalism relatively painlessly. What "big value…

> As the generations that grew up with Occupy start to get in positions of command, hopefully they will try to find ways to conciliate the search for private profit with the fairness of higher taxation.

You say that like "the generations" uniformly "grew up with Occupy". Lots grew up with other kinds of populism. Many grew up with online FPSs. I'll bet on a lot of diversity of perspective in lizardpeople^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Millennials over any sweeping prediction about Millenial culture and politics.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#65

Post by humanrebar »

sailingparrot wrote: post #3
cmansley wrote: post #2

Why does no one get mad at the governments who have the large tax loop holes? Shouldn't it be "Ireland close your loopholes!"

> Why does no one get mad at the governments who have the large tax loop holes? Why do you assume no one is? This has been discussed at length during the last French presidential election for example. See also: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-24/macron-ha... .

> Why do you assume no one is?

Because they're picketing Apple and not the National Assembly?

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#66

Post by humanrebar »

bauerd wrote: post #11
bdibs wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More would be accomplished by protesting the government that allows certain loopholes. Apple is a public company with an obligation to its shareholders to make money, not pay erroneous taxes.

>More would be accomplished by protesting the government that allows certain loopholes. I'm not so sure about this as I'd question that it's possible for a single government to close loopholes on its own. Arguably yes, governments should be pressured into closing "certain loopholes", but not because this necessarily leads to a better outcome. >Apple is a public company with an obligation to its shareholders to make m…

> I'm not so sure about this as I'd question that it's possible for a single government to close loopholes on its own.

That's the argument against signing global warming treaties, isn't it?

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#67

Post by threeseed »

trgv wrote: post #42
innocentoldguy wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this sort of activism really help? I mean, this isn't an Apple-only issue and if Apple is obeying tax laws, then are they really going to consider paying more just because a small group of people chanted in one of their stores for a while? Even if Apple is breaking the law, isn't it worth putting up with a handful of activists for a few hours if it saves them millions in taxes and makes their investors happy? I…

Is there any reason people can't engage in both kinds of protest? Also, I think the chances of Apple deciding to pay its taxes due to this kind of pressure are at least as high as politicians in X country closing loopholes.

People can protest all they like. It's just not going to achieve a single thing. Macron isn't directly targeted so where is the political pressure for him to change anything in France ?

It's exactly like Occupy Wall Street where people protested and camped outside the likes of JP Morgan. And what was the outcome of all of that ? Nothing.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#68

Post by matt_wulfeck »

threeseed wrote: post #62
beloch wrote: post #9

I really respect this kind of activism. Fair taxation certainly isn't the sexiest topic to hold a protest about, but it is actually a huge fundamental issue for us today. Individuals, and Corporations we treat as legal individuals, produce value for our society in several ways, and paying taxes is one of them. When wealthy individuals or large corporations dodge taxes via off-shore firms, etc. they erode the basis of…

Really ? This kind of activism is completely pointless and ignorant. Apple is paying the taxes it is legally responsible to pay. End of story. If you want them to pay more tax then you should be protesting against Macron and the rest of the French government and get the laws changed. Multinational tax avoidance can ONLY be fixed through international cooperation of governments.

$9 billion in taxes. You can't please everybody.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#69

Post by SomeStupidPoint »

threeseed wrote: post #62
beloch wrote: post #9

I really respect this kind of activism. Fair taxation certainly isn't the sexiest topic to hold a protest about, but it is actually a huge fundamental issue for us today. Individuals, and Corporations we treat as legal individuals, produce value for our society in several ways, and paying taxes is one of them. When wealthy individuals or large corporations dodge taxes via off-shore firms, etc. they erode the basis of…

Really ? This kind of activism is completely pointless and ignorant. Apple is paying the taxes it is legally responsible to pay. End of story. If you want them to pay more tax then you should be protesting against Macron and the rest of the French government and get the laws changed. Multinational tax avoidance can ONLY be fixed through international cooperation of governments.

People have been trying that, for at least a few decades.

Do facts like almost every American wants a more fair system change it? No, because the governing structure has itself been corrupted after decades of abuse.

Therefore, it seems the most effective means of causing change -- given that what you suggest has failed for decades -- would be to cause direct financial harm to those who are actively corrupting the system for their benefit, as that changes the calculus for them and incentivizes stopping.

This is a downright civil way to do that when society breaks down -- the poor used to just stab people over bad tax law.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#70

Post by downandout »

Thorncorona wrote: post #22
downandout wrote: post #14

These people are protesting against the wrong entity. Apple followed the tax laws at the time, so they should protest against their government for creating loopholes that can and always will be exploited by those with the resources to do so. Public companies have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profits, which includes taking advantage of any and all available strategies to reduce their ta…

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Taking advantage of others (such as lobbying for loopholes) falls under the umbrella. Just because you can dump industrial waste into a river doesn't mean you should. Just because you can steal doesn't mean you should. Just because you can shortchange citizens doesn't mean you should. Yes laws should be passed, I agree, but that doesn't mean we can't also multilaterally a…

So do you voluntarily pay more taxes than you are legally obligated to? Purposely fail to take deductions etc? Hopefully you’re walking the walk since you’re saying things like this.
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