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I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

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Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article author's claims are anecdotal by definition. She is recounting the story of why she doesn't want to be a software developer anymore. As readers, we can ask ourselves whether her story represents something that we feel is true in our own lives. In a way, the comment you are replying to is at odds with article, and in a way the comment is in agreement with the article. The comment you are replying to states…

I believe it's effect. Check out the verb section. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/effect But, once again, nice side ad hominem. Keep 'em coming. -edit: Here's the thing, I'm a dude, and I have worked construction and agricultural jobs. I'm not pissed because I personally feel attacked. I'm pissed because I consider HN one of the most intellectually-honest fora online, but whenever gender politics comes up, the preten…

The "verb" section has two definitions for effect.

>1. To make or bring about; to implement.

>2. Misspelling of affect.

I believe the second one is the relevant definition here. Compare that to google's verb definition of affect:

>1. pretend to have or feel (something).

>2. use, wear, or assume (something) pretentiously or so as to make an impression on others.

Which seems a much more natural fit for your usage.

I don't intend this as an ad hominem. I'm not saying your argument is wrong because you misspelled a word. Spelling and grammar mistakes happen. In fact, another commenter has pointed out one of mine in this thread. I just know that the distinction between affect and effect is tricky, and wanted to point it out as I want my own mistakes pointed out so I can stop making them and become better.

>One truth is that telling somebody to find a new job if they don't want to have to deal with neck strain or gender politics is clearly a dig at the woman's femininity.

My reading of this line is that it is a repetition of the theme of the comment - software development has flaws, but these flaws, in the commenter's experience, are better than in other fields. For example, one might imagine a dentist strains his/her neck while staring down into the mouths of patients for long periods, or a pursuer of the culinary arts will be exposed to variations of gender discrimination less refined than the writings of James Damore.

>of course men aren't going to naturally "feel" intimidated by a subtle implication that a woman is not up to the physicality of many jobs, or that she's being too sensitive

The commenter is not suggesting that the article is not physically "up to" the demands of software development. The article author is saying so when she writes that:

>Over the past decade it has worn me down. I have regular painful migraines triggered by working long hours. I have the beginnings of arthritis in my neck. I’ve tried standing desks, balance board desks, treadmill desks, special diets, exercising more before and after work. Doctors, physical therapists, massage therapists of every stripe. I’ve spent thousands and thousands of dollars. I’ve hidden it because I was afraid it would make me unemployable. I’ve worked those long hours in intense pain

There is no shame or element of sexism in one individual being physically incapable or physically hurt by certain types of activities.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#302
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article author's claims are anecdotal by definition. She is recounting the story of why she doesn't want to be a software developer anymore. As readers, we can ask ourselves whether her story represents something that we feel is true in our own lives. In a way, the comment you are replying to is at odds with article, and in a way the comment is in agreement with the article. The comment you are replying to states…

> with it's flaws. > As a final note, I believe the word you are looking for is "affect" and not "effect" A nice example of Skitt's Law. http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/skitt-s-law

Thanks for the correction. I typed the previous comment on my mobile, and the autocomplete there is quite confident with apostrophe insertion, which I don't always notice and correct.

You are incorrect though regarding Skitt's Law - this sequence of posts is not an example of it. My comment is mainly about the subject under discussion, with a post script correction on a tricky spelling error. Your comment, which is purely a correction of a common spelling mistake, contains no errors so far as I can tell. Thus, you are the spelling pedant in this situation (even implying I should be embarrassed for making a spelling mistake) and yet, you have no spelling errors - exactly disproving Skitt's Law.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#303

I read the article; I'm not sure this is so much a criticism of the industry as it is an examination of this developer's personal anecdotal experience. As developers, we lead a very charmed life that others sometimes aren't even born with the chance to intellectually compete for; the author neglects to address how lucky we are to be able to do this at all, let alone to then find employment in it. If it's not an indus…

This is a perfect example of the tone that people (men) effect when they want to mask their own emotional reaction to feeling attacked with a veneer of logicism or scientificity. Simply state that her claims are anecdotal, and without even addressing the core of the argument you've managed to make them sound _unreasonable_. At least to those amenable to that kind of passive aggressive ad hominem.

By definition, her account of this is anecdotal.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#304
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a civil or substantive comment. Could you please take a look at the guidelines and then follow them? We're trying to do better than drive-by personal attacks and dismissals here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Please explain, in plain English, how this breaks the guidelines or how this is "not a civil or substantive comment".

> Maybe it's best to quit software if you don't even understand basic statistics.

This is a personal attack, which is not civil according to the standards of this site.

> Go shovel shit if you want. The author just doesn't seem to want to work. That is all.

This is not a substantive statement.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a furniture upholsterer. It was super interesting, good exercise, and really required a lot of analytic thinking. I loved upholstery. However, I wasn't able to support a wife and kid on an upholsterer's paycheck. An employee upholsterer starts at $10/hour for a junior up to a high-range of $20/hr for 10+ years experience. Now I'm a software developer making multiples higher more income. I like it OK and I can p…

Interesting you mentioned your story about going from upholsterer to software engineer. It looks like the OP of the medium post is going the other way around... > The good news is I basically already did win the lottery. I built up savings working as a developer which allowed me to quit. > .... but now gives me a landing pad where I can take some time to really do what I love. Ample time with people I care about. > I…

I started getting a little dissatisfied with programming during university, and decided to become an Emergency Medical Technician because medicine had always interested me. I thought it would be a far more meaningful experience, but it drove me back to programming very quickly.

The majority of calls were rather pointless in terms of impact. Patients were generally in a state where nothing you did would make a difference, whether that was because they we're beyond help or didn't really need your help in the first place. The calls where you did make a difference we're generally so traumatic anyways that I preferred to try and forget about them.

In my area, pay was about 12 to 15 USD per hour. It wasn't worth it to me to dodge bodily fluids, risk throwing your back out lifting stretchers (those things are heavy even without a patient!), and above all, get an incredibly depressing view of humanity. I worked in a low-income area and above all it was just sad.

Granted, I was 22 years old and probably a little too immature for the work. I worked with some of the most burnt-out, cynical people I can imagine, but also some of the kindest, most-dedicated individuals I have ever met in my life. I moved back in with my parents to catch up on programming and got into software dev without any issues.

I worked in consulting for three years and it was incredibly stressful. I learned a lot working on a wide variety of projects, but there were also weeks of working 70+ hours. I began resorting to substance abuse to deal with burnout.

Now I work as the sole developer for a small organization. I don't learn as much in my day-to-day activities as I did as a consultant, but the work is not stressful and I have incredibly supportive coworkers.

I am less stressed but not satisfied with my job. Cars have become a passion of mine, I debate becoming a mechanic now at least once a week. I would get paid far less, but there is something incredibly satisfying about working on cars. It feels a lot more meaningful to me.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#306
post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please explain, in plain English, how this breaks the guidelines or how this is "not a civil or substantive comment".

> Maybe it's best to quit software if you don't even understand basic statistics. This is a personal attack, which is not civil according to the standards of this site. > Go shovel shit if you want. The author just doesn't seem to want to work. That is all. This is not a substantive statement.

Thanks for your explanation. But I think the point of my comment was that the article itself was neither civil nor substantive. Am I not allowed to make such a criticism?

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#307
post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe it's best to quit software if you don't even understand basic statistics. This is a personal attack, which is not civil according to the standards of this site. > Go shovel shit if you want. The author just doesn't seem to want to work. That is all. This is not a substantive statement.

Thanks for your explanation. But I think the point of my comment was that the article itself was neither civil nor substantive. Am I not allowed to make such a criticism?

That's all fine. Please make it within the guidelines.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a furniture upholsterer. It was super interesting, good exercise, and really required a lot of analytic thinking. I loved upholstery. However, I wasn't able to support a wife and kid on an upholsterer's paycheck. An employee upholsterer starts at $10/hour for a junior up to a high-range of $20/hr for 10+ years experience. Now I'm a software developer making multiples higher more income. I like it OK and I can p…

> I like it OK and I can provide a cushy life for my family. Upholstery was the best. I miss upholstery. Condoms exist. Try using one.

We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the guidelines.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#309
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, no no no. If they can fire us at any time, we can leave at any time. There should be absolutely nothing in anyone that says "work for less than what you're worth". Whatever her reasons for going for and getting what she wanted, good for her. And any ethical system that says "work for less than what you're worth in an at-will environment" is a bad ethical system, full stop.

You're arguing against a straw man. If she felt she was worth more than the salary she was offered, she shouldn't have accepted it in the first place. Simple as that.

Who can say what was going on in the inner world of this hypothetical second-hand story person's mind?

All we know is she took a job and then took a better one.

You're claiming that's an unethical act, and I'm saying, "it's the free market, baby!" They pushed for at-will, they got it, consequences and all.

And, more broadly, I grew up in the transitionary period from "one job for life" to "throw 'em to the wolves," and I have absolutely zero sympathy for employers, in this world their policies have wrought.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't ask you. So I am not sure you are telling me the correct answer. But I want to ask you something. How "That is not why women earn 20% less than men. It is because men work longer hours over longer periods of time than women do." is not disrespectful and how it was backed? Sorry but I cannot stand without doing anything with such claims, and it pisses me off that the mods here think my comment is a personal a…

I can only offer a guess at what dang thought was a personal attack, but I can opine on what is a personal attack independently. There are different contexts in which different levels of evidence or backing might be supplied, but the first thing I noted is that you don't explain why the things you mention are relevant. "That is not why women earn 20% less than men", regardless of if it is true or false is clearly rel…

> why is what someone "sounds like" relevant?

Because we live in a world where women are treated as less important/intelligent than men. And we must try not to promote that stereotype with lies.

> Claims about a population of people, brought up in a relevant context is not disrespectful

So things like "people is stupid", "most people here are male chauvinist", are ok to say? The context is that the author of the article makes some claim about how women are treated worse than men in tech.

> Who says it's false?

All the articles posted in HN about salaries. Every year stackoverflow makes a survey for developers where they analyze among other things the salaries (for example: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2016#salary-gender) There is almost no gap in salary by gender with same years of expertise, the gap only happens with age, >35, where the position is important (it means less women in top positions). But this topic has been brought here over and over, it doesn't need to cite it all the time.

I repeat the question again: How "That is not why women earn 20% less than men. It is because men work longer hours over longer periods of time than women do." is not disrespectful and how it was backed?

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