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How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

nytimes.com

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Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#291

Post by jamie_ca »

rayiner wrote: post #274
Spooky23 wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statistics don’t tell the story. Look at a population density map of Ontario. 30% of Canadians live in Ontario. About half of Ontarians live in the Toronto metro area alone. Overall about half the population lives in the top ten metro areas. http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/as-sa/97-550...

Statistics do tell the story, but you gotta use the right statistics. Using the population of arbitrary geographical regions (provinces and states) isn't a useful measure. For transit and rail, a useful measure might be something like "population density of a region encompassing 50% of the metro area population." A single rail line from Quebec City to Winnipeg, through Ottowa, Toronto, and Calgary, with a spur to Edm…

We almost have that. VIA Rail operates "The Canadian" line that runs Vancouver-Edmonton-Saskatoon-Winnipeg-Toronto, as well as a line that runs up the ON/QC corridor from Windsor-Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec City.

I can't speak for the latter, but we took the Canadian from Vancouver-Winnipeg for a family reunion a few years back. It was a great trip, except for the 6h delay sitting just outside Winnipeg due to backed up freight traffic (I believe VIA leases access to most of the track, and has to yield to any freight trains) that meant we were getting off the train and had to find a hotel at midnight, instead of getting picked up by family at a reasonable hour.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#292

Post by nerfhammer »

mlrtime wrote: post #257
crazygringo wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? From Penn St you take the NJ Transit train to Newark airport, or the LIRR train to Jamaica where you transfer to the AirTrain which brings you to your desired terminal at JFK. LaGuardia doesn't have a train option though. But yeah, taking a car from Newark to Williamburg in the afternoon, I guess you've learned not to do that again. :) NJ Transit is your friend.

From Manhattan, you need to take 3 trains to get to EWR. Subway, Path (NJT), shuttle. LGA: None JFK: Subway,AirtRain Compare this with HKG or LHR, it is pathetic.

nitpick: PATH != NJT. PATH is run by the Port Authority. NJT commuter rail is what connects to EWR AirTrain.

Also, don't take the subway to/from JFK, take LIRR it's like 40 minutes faster.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#293

Post by raspbian99 »

twblalock wrote: post #117
rayiner wrote: post #21

I don’t understand why American governments are so bad at providing public services. Money often isn’t it. The NY subway has an operating budget of $8 billion for about 1.7 billion riders per year ($4.7 per rider per year). The London Tube has an operating budget of (2.2 billion pounds—$3.5 billion pre-Brexit) for 1.4 billion riders ($2.5 per rider). The systems are in extremely similar cities, are almost exactly the…

I think it just boils down to American voters either having lower standards or not being willing to punish politicians for incompetence. If the subway service in, say, London or Tokyo or Paris became as bad as some of the systems in the US, it would be a major political scandal and the people running the city would fear for their jobs. That doesn't happen in the US, even in places like New York where a majority of co…

Well, that's one of the problems with the MTA: it's not technically under the direct control of any individual elected official. The MTA is an independent agency governed by a board that consists of five members appointed by the governor of New York State, four by the mayor of New York City, and three by county executives on Long Island and Westchester.

If the MTA were simply a city agency for which the mayor was directly responsible, it would be possible to channel voter anger (and there's plenty of voter anger, by the way) into action. But it's the governor who really has the most control, and he's responsible to a wide swath of voters outside the New York City region (who tend to want less spent on the MTA in any case). Plus many voters don't really understand how the MTA is structured, and elected officials can hide behind this independent-agency arrangement.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#294

Post by raspbian99 »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #56

What's most obscene is that no effort is made to compensate for lost trains on partially shutdown express/local lines. The mayor could fix that immediately by just demanding more service on the sections that run rather than forcing everyone into sardine cans. It's pretty clear that MTA is using repairs as an excuse to cut spending on service and are unlikely to ever run it at full capacity. The system carried more pa…

Yeah, but the demand in the 40s had a completely different pattern from today's demand, so you can't just ramp up train frequency across the system and meet it.

The L train to Bedford Ave carries way more people now than it ever did in the 1940s, when Williamsburg was a modestly dense working-class neighborhood. On the other hand, those letter lines to outer Brooklyn are much less used today than they were in the 1940s, as are parts of the system in the Bronx. And, of course, there were elevated lines over Second and Third Avenues in the 1940s.

The parts of the system that run at crush capacity are already running with the highest possible train frequency. Some of the lines might not seem maxed out on headways, but they have to deal with interlining; the frequency of the F train can't be increased because the line it shares with the E train in Queens is fully loaded, etc.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#295

Post by apeace »

twblalock wrote: post #117
rayiner wrote: post #21

I don’t understand why American governments are so bad at providing public services. Money often isn’t it. The NY subway has an operating budget of $8 billion for about 1.7 billion riders per year ($4.7 per rider per year). The London Tube has an operating budget of (2.2 billion pounds—$3.5 billion pre-Brexit) for 1.4 billion riders ($2.5 per rider). The systems are in extremely similar cities, are almost exactly the…

I think it just boils down to American voters either having lower standards or not being willing to punish politicians for incompetence. If the subway service in, say, London or Tokyo or Paris became as bad as some of the systems in the US, it would be a major political scandal and the people running the city would fear for their jobs. That doesn't happen in the US, even in places like New York where a majority of co…

Exactly. If you read the article, it answers the OP's question pretty thoroughly. Comes down to incompetence and favoritism at the highest levels. The voters simply haven't done anything about it.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#296

Post by Spooky23 »

rayiner wrote: post #274
Spooky23 wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statistics don’t tell the story. Look at a population density map of Ontario. 30% of Canadians live in Ontario. About half of Ontarians live in the Toronto metro area alone. Overall about half the population lives in the top ten metro areas. http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/as-sa/97-550...

Statistics do tell the story, but you gotta use the right statistics. Using the population of arbitrary geographical regions (provinces and states) isn't a useful measure. For transit and rail, a useful measure might be something like "population density of a region encompassing 50% of the metro area population." A single rail line from Quebec City to Winnipeg, through Ottowa, Toronto, and Calgary, with a spur to Edm…

I think we're making the same point. The GP was pointing out (correctly) that PEI has the highest population density of a Canadian province, which is similar to small states like Maine.

I'm saying that the raw number isn't meaningful, and you have to zoom in to find value and evaluate it in context.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#297

Post by francisofascii »

rhino369 wrote: post #261
dajohnson89 wrote: post #7

DC's system is pretty bad too. this morning I had to choose between a 50 minute commute via metro for $4, or a 20 minute Uber ride for $10. I'm so so glad I got the Uber.

I make the same choice and it is ridiculous. I live a block from a station and work from a block from another station on the same line. And somehow average commute time is 45 min. And it's only ~4 miles away. Lyft costs under 10 bucks and takes under 15 minutes if I leave after 9:45.

Metro has its problems but avg. commute time of 45 min. for 4 miles seems high to me. Unless you mean Bethesda to Silver Spring.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#298

Post by wan23 »

bradleyjg wrote: post #85
L_Rahman wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I promise you that New Yorkers care about this deeply. https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/the-human-cost-of-subway... Any survey of New Yorkers and government services will tell you how much this matters. The biggest problem is that the New York government at city and state levels is one of the most corrupt, oligarchic and undemocratic organizations in modern society. I cannot begin to describe how broken it is. Her…

The biggest problem is that the New York government at city and state levels is one of the most corrupt, oligarchic and undemocratic organizations in modern society. I cannot begin to describe how broken it is. We could have voted to reform the constitution and then stayed engaged enough to pick independent delegates instead of the same old insiders catering to special interests. But we collectively let the insiders…

The way New Yorkers got conned out of having a con con is the most disappointing thing that happened in politics this year IMO. It's amazing how pretty much every organization and politician right and left got together to oppose a chance for meaningful change.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#299

Post by ataturk »

flexie wrote: post #114
notmtaemployee wrote: post #38

The MTA's problems begin and end at a weak senior management unwilling to standup to Cuomo's frivolous micromanagement and a transit union unwilling to modernize. Politicians should be pushing for serious procurement and labor work rule reforms, otherwise the systemic managerial and operational deficiencies will ensure that the deterioration of service we see now will repeat it self in 5 to 10 years, regardless of ho…

When is the last time America built any impressive infrastructure? I'd say in the 70s. Most airports, most of the interstate highway network, most subway systems, bridges, tunnels, and dams were built from the 1930s and on to the 1970s. The railroads are even older. And after that; Silence. It's like you didn't even care to maintain it. First time I arrived in America, I was taken aback by how old and run down everyt…

Every municipality in the US over-promised on pensions in order to under-pay workers and kick the can. EVERYTHING you experience that is a problem every day is related to the pensions crisis one way or another because cities are now scrambling to meet those legal obligations.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#300

Post by ataturk »

nerdponx wrote: post #90
kenferry wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What opportunity are you referring to?

There was a referendum to hold a constitutional convention which would be able to propose amendments to the state constitution. For some reason I still don't quite understand, labor unions were viciously opposed to it, supposedly because they were afraid of losing their pensions.

I used to live in NY State. Grew up there. To the uninitiated eye, everything appears fine. It's only because I was related to some people in government, in particular a mayor, that I know how bad the corruption really is. I don't think it ever get fixed. Corruption in NY is a daily way of life and the further downstate you go, the worse it gets. If the people in my family were corrupt and getting paid cash and kickbacks, then there is absolutely no end to how deep it goes. I won't say anymore because I still have relatives living there, albeit very elderly ones, and they are so fed up with NY that they wish for a revolution, even if the revolution makes everything worse. The logic being that at least some of the guilty would probably be killed. And no, what's wrong in NY won't get sorted out any other way. It can't--the power grab was so total and so complete there than it's a black hole from which no good can ever escape.
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