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How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

nytimes.com

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Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#191

Post by dogruck »

spyspy wrote: post #83
dogruck wrote: post #60

After reading that article, it’s hard not to have the angry reaction of “wow, those idiots!” Right!? But, really, we should look inward. For example, where was the New York Times when all of these bad leadership decisions were made? Were they publishing op-eds with clearheaded prognostications of gloom, and alternative solutions? And, what about the voters who elected these politicians? Most importantly, where do we…

Yes let’s blame the victims first. That’ll solve everything.

Ah, I see how my comment could be interepreted that way. Wasn’t my intention.

At this point, it doesn’t feel constructive to wail at decades of obvious mismanagement.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#192

Post by GuB-42 »

dmitriid wrote: post #136
flexie wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When is the last time America built any impressive infrastructure? I'd say in the 70s. Most airports, most of the interstate highway network, most subway systems, bridges, tunnels, and dams were built from the 1930s and on to the 1970s. The railroads are even older. And after that; Silence. It's like you didn't even care to maintain it. First time I arrived in America, I was taken aback by how old and run down everyt…

Not only the US. It seems the rest of the world managed to build most of their infrastructure in the 60s and 70s. Now if you look at large infrastructure projects, they are much more expensive, and proceed at a glacial pace. Except in China, of course.

I live in France, and I was born in the early 80s and I can tell you that a lot has been done during my lifetime regarding infrastructure : high speed train lines, highways, subways, tunnels, bridges, etc... And it didn't stop.

I am not trying to tell that France does better than other countries, I think it's not even close. It is just that I know it best.

I think we tend to take everything that works for granted and forget about the difficulties in the past, only talking about present issues. Maybe the convenient road you are using every day didn't exist 20 years ago, maybe it was delayed several years and went way overbudget, but now, you feel like it has always been here, only paying attention when there is a problem.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#193

Post by Froyoh »

mabbo wrote: post #19
victor106 wrote: post #2

I take the subway almost everyday since the past 7 years and its been getting worse. NYC should learn something from Toronto and London. They have the best subway systems IMHO.

Everyone in Toronto loves to complain about the TTC, but the few lines we have here are pretty reliable. We just need to expand the system further. The Eglinton line and the Finch LRT will help.

I'm quite shocked people think Toronto's transit system is on par with London

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#194

Post by Mountain_Skies »

jacobush wrote: post #150
dmitriid wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only the US. It seems the rest of the world managed to build most of their infrastructure in the 60s and 70s. Now if you look at large infrastructure projects, they are much more expensive, and proceed at a glacial pace. Except in China, of course.

I (half-seriously) blame computers. We can do so much now, with computers! So we do much... Before, someone drew a line on a map, and that was that. Any problems had to be dealt with downstream.

Which bring up the subject of visible versus (mostly) invisible infrastructure. Large new hydroelectric projects are now rare but compare communications infrastructure of now to that of even the turn of the century and one can see a huge amount of spending and capacity taking place constantly. But buried fiber isn't seen, it's pretty much magic to most people. Cell and microwave towers only get noticed when they're an eyesore but otherwise go unnoticed. It's this invisible infrastructure where much of our investment now goes.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#195

Post by apaprocki »

Milner08 wrote: post #183
FanaHOVA wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As usual, exaggerations on HN about how much Europe is better than the US. All of this is simply not true. I was born and raised in Rome and traveled through most of Europe and the US. There's highs and lows in both of them. Come to Rome and rent a car for a few days, you'll wish to be in Manhattan again.

I've driven in both. Rome is bad, but I would still say the roads are worse in Manhattan.

The roads are mostly resurfaced on a schedule that has them resurfacing nearly every day of the year. There is just so much more abuse on Manhattan asphalt from large trucks, heavy trucks, cars, construction, etc. that any given individual point can appear run-down, but then look fresh and new as soon as it is cycled through. You don't see many 16m trucks abusing streets in Rome :)

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/motorist/resurfintro.shtml

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#196

Post by danmaz74 »

FanaHOVA wrote: post #156
flexie wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When is the last time America built any impressive infrastructure? I'd say in the 70s. Most airports, most of the interstate highway network, most subway systems, bridges, tunnels, and dams were built from the 1930s and on to the 1970s. The railroads are even older. And after that; Silence. It's like you didn't even care to maintain it. First time I arrived in America, I was taken aback by how old and run down everyt…

As usual, exaggerations on HN about how much Europe is better than the US. All of this is simply not true. I was born and raised in Rome and traveled through most of Europe and the US. There's highs and lows in both of them. Come to Rome and rent a car for a few days, you'll wish to be in Manhattan again.

Sure, there are ups and downs. But Rome is a very bad example, it's a down for many reasons and it's not representative at all.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#197

Post by theklub »

rayiner wrote: post #21

I don’t understand why American governments are so bad at providing public services. Money often isn’t it. The NY subway has an operating budget of $8 billion for about 1.7 billion riders per year ($4.7 per rider per year). The London Tube has an operating budget of (2.2 billion pounds—$3.5 billion pre-Brexit) for 1.4 billion riders ($2.5 per rider). The systems are in extremely similar cities, are almost exactly the…

Unions have a lot to do with it.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#198

Post by apaprocki »

slg wrote: post #77
rayiner wrote: post #21

I don’t understand why American governments are so bad at providing public services. Money often isn’t it. The NY subway has an operating budget of $8 billion for about 1.7 billion riders per year ($4.7 per rider per year). The London Tube has an operating budget of (2.2 billion pounds—$3.5 billion pre-Brexit) for 1.4 billion riders ($2.5 per rider). The systems are in extremely similar cities, are almost exactly the…

>The systems are in extremely similar cities, are almost exactly the same route miles, and are similarly old. Yet NYC’s system costs almost twice as much to run. There is one fundamental difference between the two systems and that is that the London Tube stops service overnight while the New York City Subway remains open 24/7/365. Having a nightly maintenance window of several hours in which they can do preventive ma…

The other fundamental difference being that the London tube has ~250mi (~402km) of track, while NYC has ~840mi (~1352km) of track.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#199

Post by IkmoIkmo »

joering2 wrote: post #110
matt_wulfeck wrote: post #5

> ”... hundreds of mechanic positions have been cut because there is not enough money to pay them — even though the average total compensation for subway managers has grown to nearly $300,000 a year. ” I know this isn’t the primary reason the subway is falling into disrepair, but it’s clearly a symptom of a system that lacks real accountability. There has to be some reasonable push back to compensation (backed ultima…

Its gets worse than that; if you read further the reasoning is that "Its hard to buy apartment for less than $800,000 in Brooklyn". Great excuse next time they interview you for the job; check how much is average housing, divide roughly by three, and here is how you have reasonably arrived at your salary. If they look at you odd, just refer to NYT article.

It's absolutely ridiculous.

I mean, median household income in Brooklyn is $45k.[0] That's household. The average household size in Brooklyn is 2.75. There'll be some kids in there, but likely the average adults per household is 1.5.

So here you have a guy earning close to $300k, likely has a partner with supplemental income too, which is easily 6-8x the median household income...jeez.

I mean hell, country wide there's a common 30% income spent on rent rule. Median rent in Brooklyn is about $36k a year, for a 120k salary. These guys are way beyond that.

It's obviously not a matter of 'do I earn enough for a decent life?'. They could earn half, say 140k, and still earn a decent life in NY. So it becomes a question of, is there anyone willing to do these jobs for say 180k, instead of 280k, and if so, the unions are no longer working in the best interests of ordinary folks.

When there's a small number of rich disproportionately salaried guys making public goods and services hugely expensive for ordinary folks, I think the Union's raison d'etre has died. (or changed into something awful).

0 https://www.census.gov/censusexplorer/censusexplorer.html

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#200

Post by Spooky23 »

bradleyjg wrote: post #85
L_Rahman wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I promise you that New Yorkers care about this deeply. https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/the-human-cost-of-subway... Any survey of New Yorkers and government services will tell you how much this matters. The biggest problem is that the New York government at city and state levels is one of the most corrupt, oligarchic and undemocratic organizations in modern society. I cannot begin to describe how broken it is. Her…

The biggest problem is that the New York government at city and state levels is one of the most corrupt, oligarchic and undemocratic organizations in modern society. I cannot begin to describe how broken it is. We could have voted to reform the constitution and then stayed engaged enough to pick independent delegates instead of the same old insiders catering to special interests. But we collectively let the insiders…

Give me a break. The political conditions right now made it incredibly dumb to do a convention now.

With the ridiculous court decisions that have been made, the governor has unlimited, nearly unchecked power via the budget process. If you are happy or unhappy with anything, credit/blame needs to be directed at whomever the governor is from Spitzer forward.

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