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How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

nytimes.com

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Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#151

Post by dagw »

leroy_masochist wrote: post #148
beisner wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t forget the subway lines in basically every Chinese city! Beijing has overcrowding issues, but Shanghai, Chengdu, Guangzhou all have phenomenal metros.

As a native New Yorker I was blown away by the Shenzhen subway when I visited last year. It's spotless, easy to navigate (lots of language-free signs with really clear intuitive diagrams of where to go), and almost eerily fast and smooth-riding. And 5 bars of LTE the whole time.

A thing built 6-10 years ago will always be more modern and less run down than a thing built 60-100 years ago. Time will tell how well the Chinese systems age.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#152

Post by linschn »

golemiprague wrote: post #144
flexie wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When is the last time America built any impressive infrastructure? I'd say in the 70s. Most airports, most of the interstate highway network, most subway systems, bridges, tunnels, and dams were built from the 1930s and on to the 1970s. The railroads are even older. And after that; Silence. It's like you didn't even care to maintain it. First time I arrived in America, I was taken aback by how old and run down everyt…

Because in the mid 60' the immigration laws changed and the leftist thinking took over, the whole protestant hard working American ethos was erased within couple of decades and now America is just another miserable hodgepodge of tribes who can't unite even to decide about transgender toilets let alone have the vision and capacity to run huge infrastructure projects.

This is so stupid it's not even wrong. Nixon, Ford and Reagan were not leftists, and Reagonomics is not characterized by a love of public spending on infrastructure.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#153

Post by vog »

jacobush wrote: post #147
golemiprague wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in the mid 60' the immigration laws changed and the leftist thinking took over, the whole protestant hard working American ethos was erased within couple of decades and now America is just another miserable hodgepodge of tribes who can't unite even to decide about transgender toilets let alone have the vision and capacity to run huge infrastructure projects.

True I guess, except for the part where it was a hodgepodge of tribes before the 60s too? Or am I missing something.

And except that the "protestant hard working American ethos" (perhaps "protestant/puritan work ethic" was meant?) somehow leads to increased productivity - which it doesn't.

Oh, and except for the perception that the USA is very leftist. Really, from a European point of view, it's quite the reverse.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#154

Post by archagon »

thriftwy wrote: post #106
nerdponx wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, the 4/5 between Union Square and 125th St is a sardine can from 7-10 AM and 5-7 PM daily even when they run every 3 minutes or whatever the rush hour gap is.

Moscow Metro does 40 of trains per hour (doesn't save from sardine can effect tho) so one per 3 minutes is not a hard limit.

St. Petersburg as well. (Actually, closer to one per 2 minutes.)

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#155

Post by mseebach »

Chathamization wrote: post #79
L_Rahman wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I promise you that New Yorkers care about this deeply. https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/the-human-cost-of-subway... Any survey of New Yorkers and government services will tell you how much this matters. The biggest problem is that the New York government at city and state levels is one of the most corrupt, oligarchic and undemocratic organizations in modern society. I cannot begin to describe how broken it is. Her…

> This leaves us with no levers of power over government decisions. I'm not sure I understand this. Yes, the hand-picked successor will be able to fulfill the rest of the term, but then he's up for re-election. If people were actually outraged about this, they could vote him out the next time there's an election (just like they could have voted out the predecessor that set this process in motion). If people were real…

That's not a very practical way to think about democracy. Yes, that's the middle school government-class platonic ideal of democracy and government, but that's not exactly the whole dynamic.

I mean do you also find it hard to believe that people are bothered by Trump? After all, "they" just elected him.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#156

Post by FanaHOVA »

flexie wrote: post #114
notmtaemployee wrote: post #38

The MTA's problems begin and end at a weak senior management unwilling to standup to Cuomo's frivolous micromanagement and a transit union unwilling to modernize. Politicians should be pushing for serious procurement and labor work rule reforms, otherwise the systemic managerial and operational deficiencies will ensure that the deterioration of service we see now will repeat it self in 5 to 10 years, regardless of ho…

When is the last time America built any impressive infrastructure? I'd say in the 70s. Most airports, most of the interstate highway network, most subway systems, bridges, tunnels, and dams were built from the 1930s and on to the 1970s. The railroads are even older. And after that; Silence. It's like you didn't even care to maintain it. First time I arrived in America, I was taken aback by how old and run down everyt…

As usual, exaggerations on HN about how much Europe is better than the US. All of this is simply not true. I was born and raised in Rome and traveled through most of Europe and the US. There's highs and lows in both of them. Come to Rome and rent a car for a few days, you'll wish to be in Manhattan again.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#157

Post by mseebach »

tialaramex wrote: post #149
masklinn wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> London and Toronto have been able to modernize much of their transit systems in last 5 years and its not because they have more money. Once you fix the top everything else will fall into place. TBF NYC does have the exceptional — almost unique — feature that it runs 24/7.

That's an infrastructure design thing though. You literally can't run the London Underground 24/7 because there's only one pair through the centre for each line, so when you shut a tunnel to send a bunch people in, you can't run the service. Night Tube (the centre parts of the London Underground running continuously from early Friday to the middle of the night on Sunday) is mostly about re-arranging maintenance and c…

I believe that I read something about upgrading the signalling and/or "third rail" electrical systems was part of it, so they can shut the line down in stages behind the last train and reversely in front of the first, rather than having to wait for the train to terminate at the end of the line and stopping as soon as the first train leaves, often up to an hour outside central London. This gives one or two extra hours of work every night which is why they don't need the weekend.

But quoting from memory, could well be mistaken.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#158

Post by tialaramex »

blahedo wrote: post #48
taurath wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't either. It feels like everything we do costs 10x anywhere else for 10x the time. You would think the cost of building a few light rail lines in a city like Seattle would cost less than a cross-town subway in Japan. In my short life I've never seen America really build anything impressive in transportation - BART, the NYC Subway, the interstate highway system, and most of our airports seem like they w…

The DC metro was mostly built in the 80s and 90s (early construction started in the 70s), and the Portland MAX started construction in the mid 80s and has been expanding regularly since then. Atlanta's MARTA rail network was built mostly in the 80s. There are examples if you look for them, though I'm not sure what all counts as "impressive" here. Outside of city subways: Amtrak's Acela service (which is what passes f…

Acela is technically capable of speeds that would be considered "high speed" for a legacy system (which is what this is, it's not like they could tear out New York city and build fresh then put it all back) of over 150mph. Unfortunately lack of investment means it doesn't achieve what is possible along most of the route.

Two main things you'd do if you had money and political will to speed this up:

1. Tear out old bridges (some have been "urgently in need of replacement" for a decade already) and replace with modern ones. Locals like how the old bridge looks? Great, hand over the money for a new one that looks the same. No money? You get a generic reinforced concrete bridge rated for 120mph and suck it up. This can be done in 24 hours per bridge for a short bridge, shut the railway, smash the old bridge, drop the new one in, test it, re-open the railway. If you have the manpower you can do ten bridges at once.

2. Eliminate at-grade crossings. These are unsafe even for lower speeds, they're lethal for High Speed Rail and must be closed. If practical add a bridge or tunnel. If not, too bad, close them anyway and people have to go round.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#159

Post by mseebach »

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #141
twblalock wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it just boils down to American voters either having lower standards or not being willing to punish politicians for incompetence. If the subway service in, say, London or Tokyo or Paris became as bad as some of the systems in the US, it would be a major political scandal and the people running the city would fear for their jobs. That doesn't happen in the US, even in places like New York where a majority of co…

>not being willing to punish politicians for incompetence. Punish them how? Here in America (and especially New York) we have a "two-party" system that works arm in arm to steal as much money as possible to line their own pockets. Voting for a different party doesn't mean getting a different policy - it simply means that patronage money is going into the pocket of different politically connected cronies.

Most of the rest of the world has "two-block" politics in practice, if not formally. The vast majority of national elections are between two prime minister candidates, whatever the makeup of their underlying coalitions is fairly marginal.

I think the difference in the US is much more fundamental, pluralism is baked in to the culture in a way that is pretty unique anywhere in the world, so people have very strong reactions to members of other tribes seeking authority over them. This has gotten very explicit recently, but the dynamic was always there.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#160

Post by jpatokal »

vinay427 wrote: post #93
obmelvin wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it is bad, it is an insult to people suffering from true 3rd world problems to make that comparison

I can't agree enough. GP should visit a country where if you're killed in a hit and run by a relative of a politician, it's expected that your death will be a suicide and you will receive no compensation. Or even a country where that's a milder event.

The victims of hit & runs in third world countries typically do received (some) compensation. The culprits just magically avoid prosecution.

One example from Thailand, where even killing a cop isn't enough to get the wheels of justice turning: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39427291

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