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Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

nytimes.com

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Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#131

Post by fencepost »

telesilla wrote: post #54

20 years ago I walked into a server room where the walls sported naked/semi-naked women and the inhabiting men looked at me like I was there to take away their wall candy. I chose to leave and made another career for myself, because I was too young and afraid to stand my ground. I don't regret this, because I went on to have an amazing life, but I never again stepped foot in a room like that and I do regret never wor…

20 years ago walking out was the right choice - not necessarily because of the blatant sexism but because of the massive glaringly obvious and uncorrected mismanagement in that particular environment. The problem was not just that there were a bunch of jerks with pinups on the walls, it's that any competent management in the late 90s should have eliminated that within the first 5 minutes of walking into that room.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#132

Post by noobermin »

gizmo686 wrote: post #62
adriand wrote: post #10

I've been an owner of a company for years now and I've always followed a few simple rules with the women who work for our company: - I never, ever comment on their appearance, including new hairstyles, clothing, etc. - I refer to them as "women", never as "ladies" or "girls" or other nonsense. - No touching (hugs, etc.) with the exception of handshakes and high fives. - I don't engage in, or tolerate, any sexist, sex…

>I refer to them as "women", never as "ladies" or "girls" or other nonsense. Should we discriminate against people who come from a minority dialect where this is less common? >I don't engage in, or tolerate, any sexist ... conversations. Yes you do. Your comment to which I am replying advocates for sexism. >Incidentally I regularly break some of these rules with male employees, such as remarking on haircuts ("looking…

With regards to your last paragraph, OP uses words like "never" and "always" so it doesn't sound like just unsavory situations, it sounds like rules he uses for all interactions with women in his company.

In this case, since OP put it forward, I think the onus is on him for clarifying what he means.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#133

Post by colanderman »

ThomPete wrote: post #120
colanderman wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word you're looking for is "harassment", not "abuse". Married couples call each other "sweetie", as do parents their children. It's not an appropriate term to use with co-workers (either male→female or female→male, both of which I've heard).

no thats not the word i am looking for. some considder sweeite to be sexual abuse exactly the issue with metoo.

OK, I'll bite, who calls it "abuse"? Because without an example, it looks to me like you're presenting a straw man to trivialize legitimate complaints.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#134

Post by fencepost »

simonsarris wrote: post #21

I think the second order effects here are under appreciated. Ponder, which of these is overstepping? * Telling someone they look good today * Telling someone a very funny, yet lewd joke that you just thought up * Inviting someone for a drink after work * Telling someone they should dress better * Telling someone they are too uptight * Telling someone that, if they were nicer, they might get ahead more * Inviting a co…

> But here's the problem: For a man talking to a man, all of the above are just plain fine.

I strongly disagree. Some of those should be just fine for anyone (telling someone they look good, advising someone they should dress better ("Dress for the job you want to have"), telling someone to stop being such an asshole (phrased more nicely perhaps)). For most of the others the distinction is not male/female, it's friend/buddy or co-worker.

I've worked with very straight-laced folks in the teetotaler and conservative religious categories, and drinks and lewd jokes would be completely inappropriate for them as well, male or female.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#135

Post by ThomPete »

noobermin wrote: post #127
ThomPete wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

of course but the problem obviously arises when someone new come on board. do they adapt to the culture or walk away or do the culture respect the subjective opinions of the newcommer. in my world that should be up to the culture as long as nothing illegal is going on.

It's a difficult situation, I think. I think a linear combination is best, but which axis the vector points along, it might be hard to say. I think the only thing I'd want is to not have a newcomer feel shut out because they can't adapt. You've actually given me something to think about. Cheers.

it is indeed. i dont think there are any right answers. all i know is that i want the right to have the right kind of people in my company and that i am to decide who they are, not a small group of feminist who think they know human psychology and social dynamics and want to enforce their view on others. thanks for at least listening.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#136

Post by ThomPete »

colanderman wrote: post #133
ThomPete wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no thats not the word i am looking for. some considder sweeite to be sexual abuse exactly the issue with metoo.

OK, I'll bite, who calls it "abuse"? Because without an example, it looks to me like you're presenting a straw man to trivialize legitimate complaints.

some of the metoo participant in fb and twitter threads.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#137

Post by JBlue42 »

sp527 wrote: post #99

This has become almost cartoonish. The people being accused of sexual harassment did overtly and obviously abusive things. That doesn’t call for a referendum on the entire scope of male-female interactions. If you have to wonder whether you’re a sexual harasser and aren’t stupid or deliberately oblivious, then the answer is you are not one. You may still be somewhere on the misogyny spectrum. You may even make women…

Yes, thank you.

You pretty much echoed something John Scalzi said on his blog:

https://whatever.scalzi.com/2017/11/12/a-qa-for-the-post-wei...

It's a bit long but worth reading. At the end:

"Dudes, don’t be a harassing piece of shit, don’t accept other dudes being harassing pieces of shit, and when women (and others) tell you that someone has harassed or assaulted them, believe them."

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#138

Post by flukus »

jacalata wrote: post #129
flukus wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because half the population (or at least a considerable portion of that half) get's offended if I treat them the same as I would men.

I am skeptical that there is anything you could do that would never offend any men but would offend a significant percentage of women. Even more skeptical if we're restricting the scene to professional interactions.

I didn't say it would never offend men, but take a dirty joke as an example, it might offend men, but I'm drastically less likely to be written up by HR if a man is offended. Another one is the level of profanity that the different sexes are comfortable with. Another one would be making fun of someone's clothing, perfectly acceptable amongst friends.

> Even more skeptical if we're restricting the scene to professional interactions.

Not everything in the workplace is a professional interaction, or at least it never used to be. I don't know what it's supposed to be now, you have corporate wanting to do team building exercises and everyone to be one big family, we're still supposed to sign birthday cards and that sort of rubbish, yet you can't talk to people as you would friends and family.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#139

Post by gizmo686 »

hasenj wrote: post #118
gizmo686 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I refer to them as "women", never as "ladies" or "girls" or other nonsense. Should we discriminate against people who come from a minority dialect where this is less common? >I don't engage in, or tolerate, any sexist ... conversations. Yes you do. Your comment to which I am replying advocates for sexism. >Incidentally I regularly break some of these rules with male employees, such as remarking on haircuts ("looking…

> Yes you do. Your comment to which I am replying advocates for sexism. No matter what you say or do, someone will find a way to call it sexist.

>Incidentally I regularly break some of these rules with male employees, such as remarking on haircuts ("looking good", etc.), but it's different.

Please explain how this is not sexist.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#140

Post by ThomPete »

fencepost wrote: post #131
telesilla wrote: post #54

20 years ago I walked into a server room where the walls sported naked/semi-naked women and the inhabiting men looked at me like I was there to take away their wall candy. I chose to leave and made another career for myself, because I was too young and afraid to stand my ground. I don't regret this, because I went on to have an amazing life, but I never again stepped foot in a room like that and I do regret never wor…

20 years ago walking out was the right choice - not necessarily because of the blatant sexism but because of the massive glaringly obvious and uncorrected mismanagement in that particular environment. The problem was not just that there were a bunch of jerks with pinups on the walls, it's that any competent management in the late 90s should have eliminated that within the first 5 minutes of walking into that room.

so now you are a jerk if you have pinups on the wall?
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