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Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

nytimes.com

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Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#31

Post by ThomPete »

_m8fo wrote: post #26
ThomPete wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know what OP is describing and I am saying that that's not enough as there are difference of opinion with regards to what that means. For some saying sweetie is sexual abuse.

I'm curious: would you call a man sweetie?

No just like I wouldn't call a girl bro or dude or m8.

I see no issue in saying that to someone and have never had any problems saying it to the women I have been working with or know. I am well aware of when to do that and when to not.

Yet now it's suddenly become an issue because some consider it sexual abuse.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#32

Post by _m8fo »

simonsarris wrote: post #21

I think the second order effects here are under appreciated. Ponder, which of these is overstepping? * Telling someone they look good today * Telling someone a very funny, yet lewd joke that you just thought up * Inviting someone for a drink after work * Telling someone they should dress better * Telling someone they are too uptight * Telling someone that, if they were nicer, they might get ahead more * Inviting a co…

> For a man talking to a man, all of the above are just plain fine.

Really? I wouldn't do most of your examples, personally. I'm curious if I'm the weird one here.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#33

Post by JauntyHatAngle »

simonsarris wrote: post #21

I think the second order effects here are under appreciated. Ponder, which of these is overstepping? * Telling someone they look good today * Telling someone a very funny, yet lewd joke that you just thought up * Inviting someone for a drink after work * Telling someone they should dress better * Telling someone they are too uptight * Telling someone that, if they were nicer, they might get ahead more * Inviting a co…

I think the issue with your line of thinking is that we aren't at an "equality for all, everyone treated the same" stage yet, we are still very much at the stage of having to strongly promote women in the workforce and champion their cause specifically - as the wave of celebrity assault reports has demonstrated. There is a much bigger problem of women being treated improperly in the workplace by some people, rather than finding that perfect balance just yet.

I also disagree with a few of your bullet points, if I didn't know one of my male co-workers particular well, I definitely wouldn't say 6 of those bullet points you mentioned out of the 7.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#35

Post by orblivion »

adriand wrote: post #10

I've been an owner of a company for years now and I've always followed a few simple rules with the women who work for our company: - I never, ever comment on their appearance, including new hairstyles, clothing, etc. - I refer to them as "women", never as "ladies" or "girls" or other nonsense. - No touching (hugs, etc.) with the exception of handshakes and high fives. - I don't engage in, or tolerate, any sexist, sex…

> never, ever comment on their appearance, including new hairstyles, clothing, etc.

That it's come to this is really sad.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#36

Post by T2_t2 »

debacle wrote: post #14

I've overstepped with women. Women have overstepped with me. There is definitely a graciously wide gray area of "That came out differently than I meant it." The key is to: 1. Understand your own intent when saying/doing something. 2. Consider the potential negative ways something you may say could be perceived. 3. Understand the additional social responsibility that comes with being someone's superior, explicit or im…

4. Hope no one takes further something that is a misunderstanding?

I dunno where we are going here, and I'm not sure all this stuff isn't confirming the exact opposite of everything people are hoping for.

I'm not sure why the next Harvey Weinstein won't act the exact same way ("You mean, I get to sleep with beautiful women for 30 years and then get outed worth 100s of millions? That's seems like a great deal")

I don't think anyone has any idea how this will shake out, but I won't be shocked if it is a bad outcome all around - from reduced funding for female startups to less mentoring to more gender apartheid in workplaces, to China's inevitable rise to world's largest economy and most influential country.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#37

Post by comstock »

simonsarris wrote: post #21

I think the second order effects here are under appreciated. Ponder, which of these is overstepping? * Telling someone they look good today * Telling someone a very funny, yet lewd joke that you just thought up * Inviting someone for a drink after work * Telling someone they should dress better * Telling someone they are too uptight * Telling someone that, if they were nicer, they might get ahead more * Inviting a co…

I don’t consider these things just plain fine. I’d consider many of them somewhat offensive even if they came from a friend, regardless of gender:

* Telling someone a very funny, yet lewd joke that you just thought up

* Telling someone they should dress better

* Telling someone they are too uptight

* Telling someone that, if they were nicer, they might get ahead more

I guess people are different...

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#38

Post by colanderman »

erikbye wrote: post #29

A woman at work constantly speaks in tones of sexual innuendo, when she comes over to someone asking for help or whatever, she leans over you and places her hand on your shoulder or thigh. As a man in today’s climate the double standard is painfully obvious. Follow her example and you’d be on your ass fast.

What double standard? If a female co-worker did that to me I'd bring it up with HR.

And – I'm making the assumption that you are probably in tech and therefore probably in a male-dominated workplace – unlike a woman in your situation, you can almost certainly call out the individual in question with zero fear of consequences to your career. Without knowing specifics, my prejudice is that you are in no position to complain. (My assumptions could be wrong.)

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#39

Post by xionon »

ThomPete wrote: post #15
rhelmer wrote: post #8

I'm not sure why this is hard... why is any amount of flirting, or innuendo etc. at work OK? I do realize that people spend much of their time at work, and it's a place people meet. Personally, now that we have dating sites and such I would not risk my career by trying to initiate a relationship with someone I am working with... I'd rather avoid even just the mild awkwardness of someone being uncomfortable at me aski…

It's not that simple. This isn't just some trend which can be fixed with a little logic. This is something that is changing the discussion fundamentally turning men guilty by default. The metoo campaign IM basically allowed anything from actual abuse to catcalling be called sexual abuse. It expanded the definition of sexual abuse to basically align with only the most extreme feminists. Men are now by definition guilt…

> The metoo campaign IM basically allowed anything from actual abuse to catcalling be called sexual abuse. It expanded the definition of sexual abuse to basically align with only the most extreme feminists.

Are you implying that catcalling someone, in or out of the workplace, should not be considered sexual abuse?

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#40

Post by T2_t2 »

_m8fo wrote: post #32
simonsarris wrote: post #21

I think the second order effects here are under appreciated. Ponder, which of these is overstepping? * Telling someone they look good today * Telling someone a very funny, yet lewd joke that you just thought up * Inviting someone for a drink after work * Telling someone they should dress better * Telling someone they are too uptight * Telling someone that, if they were nicer, they might get ahead more * Inviting a co…

> For a man talking to a man, all of the above are just plain fine. Really? I wouldn't do most of your examples, personally. I'm curious if I'm the weird one here.

I'de have no problem saying any of those things to another man.
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