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Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

nytimes.com

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Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#11

Post by jacalata »

mirimir wrote: post #6
jacalata wrote: post #2

The amount of hysteria on display by men in this article and elsewhere is ridiculous. What happened to the skeptical "treat each person as an individual" attitude that created "Not All Men"?

Are you saying "hysteria" ironically? But seriously, things are getting hugely chaotic. The only safe bet is keeping sexuality totally out of the workplace. But that doesn't mean isolation. As you say, you treat everyone the same. Because you really have no clue about their sexual orientation or status, issues, vulnerability, and so on.

Yes, I couldn't resist.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#12

Post by allhailkatt »

porfirium wrote: post #4

All these incidents will end up causing segregation and unwillingness to hire/work with women.

I'm guessing it's going to create power differences, where those willing to deal with social complexity will end up on top. The more people you can talk to, the better your career will do.

Much like any game of Settlers of Catan.

These incidents have been pushed against for a while, and while the same rhetoric was used in the 70's, nonetheless here we are without gendered want ads.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#13

Post by neom »

ThomPete wrote: post #7
_m8fo wrote: post #5

I honestly don't know what all the fuss is about? Is it that difficult to just treat women -- not nicely -- but equally? This is kindergarten level stuff, people. Keep your hands to yourself, be nice, don't ask overly personal questions about people unless they share first, etc. I guarantee anyone reading this that if they just reflect behavior they'll be fine. This means if someone shares something moderately person…

No it's not but it's hard for the hysteria to settle and thus a lot of men will be wrongfully accused.

Wrongfully accused of what? OP literally described how not to be accused of anything 101. Treat women like your fellow man, treat women like humans.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#14

Post by debacle »

I've overstepped with women. Women have overstepped with me. There is definitely a graciously wide gray area of "That came out differently than I meant it."

The key is to:

1. Understand your own intent when saying/doing something.

2. Consider the potential negative ways something you may say could be perceived.

3. Understand the additional social responsibility that comes with being someone's superior, explicit or implicit.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#15

Post by ThomPete »

rhelmer wrote: post #8

I'm not sure why this is hard... why is any amount of flirting, or innuendo etc. at work OK? I do realize that people spend much of their time at work, and it's a place people meet. Personally, now that we have dating sites and such I would not risk my career by trying to initiate a relationship with someone I am working with... I'd rather avoid even just the mild awkwardness of someone being uncomfortable at me aski…

It's not that simple. This isn't just some trend which can be fixed with a little logic. This is something that is changing the discussion fundamentally turning men guilty by default.

The metoo campaign IM basically allowed anything from actual abuse to catcalling be called sexual abuse. It expanded the definition of sexual abuse to basically align with only the most extreme feminists.

Men are now by definition guilty and any attempt at bringing nuance to the discussion will mark you as a possible perpetrator yourself.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#16

Post by xupybd »

adriand wrote: post #10

I've been an owner of a company for years now and I've always followed a few simple rules with the women who work for our company: - I never, ever comment on their appearance, including new hairstyles, clothing, etc. - I refer to them as "women", never as "ladies" or "girls" or other nonsense. - No touching (hugs, etc.) with the exception of handshakes and high fives. - I don't engage in, or tolerate, any sexist, sex…

>If you have to overcompensate like Pence, it's still a hell of a lot better than the alternative.

I kind of think Pence is being smart. Conservative politicians can't survive that sort of scandal so being really careful can't hurt.

Also I think there is some wisdom in not always trusting yourself not to cross the line, why not just keep your self as far away from the line as you can reasonably maintain. Kinda like ulysses tied to the mast, it's just safer that way.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#17

Post by neom »

_m8fo wrote: post #5

I honestly don't know what all the fuss is about? Is it that difficult to just treat women -- not nicely -- but equally? This is kindergarten level stuff, people. Keep your hands to yourself, be nice, don't ask overly personal questions about people unless they share first, etc. I guarantee anyone reading this that if they just reflect behavior they'll be fine. This means if someone shares something moderately person…

All the fuss is about the fact that unfortunately many men have still not acclimated to the basic tenants of a modern inclusive society.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#18

Post by debacle »

adriand wrote: post #10

I've been an owner of a company for years now and I've always followed a few simple rules with the women who work for our company: - I never, ever comment on their appearance, including new hairstyles, clothing, etc. - I refer to them as "women", never as "ladies" or "girls" or other nonsense. - No touching (hugs, etc.) with the exception of handshakes and high fives. - I don't engage in, or tolerate, any sexist, sex…

> - I never, ever comment on their appearance, including new hairstyles, clothing, etc.

> - I refer to them as "women", never as "ladies" or "girls" or other nonsense.

> If you have to overcompensate like Pence

News flash, you're overcompensating as well.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#19

Post by ThomPete »

neom wrote: post #13
ThomPete wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not but it's hard for the hysteria to settle and thus a lot of men will be wrongfully accused.

Wrongfully accused of what? OP literally described how not to be accused of anything 101. Treat women like your fellow man, treat women like humans.

I know what OP is describing and I am saying that that's not enough as there are difference of opinion with regards to what that means. For some saying sweetie is sexual abuse.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#20

Post by BEEdwards »

xupybd wrote: post #16
adriand wrote: post #10

I've been an owner of a company for years now and I've always followed a few simple rules with the women who work for our company: - I never, ever comment on their appearance, including new hairstyles, clothing, etc. - I refer to them as "women", never as "ladies" or "girls" or other nonsense. - No touching (hugs, etc.) with the exception of handshakes and high fives. - I don't engage in, or tolerate, any sexist, sex…

>If you have to overcompensate like Pence, it's still a hell of a lot better than the alternative. I kind of think Pence is being smart. Conservative politicians can't survive that sort of scandal so being really careful can't hurt. Also I think there is some wisdom in not always trusting yourself not to cross the line, why not just keep your self as far away from the line as you can reasonably maintain. Kinda like u…

>Conservative politicians can't survive that sort of scandal so being really careful can't hurt.

Roy Moore would love to talk to you. Or more specifically your daughter if she's around...

*Moore is know for dating underage girls and has been for a long time, yet it didn't hurt his political career. You can downvote, but the fact is conservatives only pay lip service to caring about morality.

http://www.businessinsider.com/roy-moore-former-colleague-co...

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