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How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

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Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#71

Post by regularfry »

erikbye wrote: post #69
waytogo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This and I would go one step further: visual programming tools are like GUIs and they are the main reason that people can't code nowadays. When I switched back to a shell after 20 years I realized how much a GUI hurts, how much I unlearned to work with computers. After decades of Windows and OSX, I got Arch with i3 (so no desktop environment). I am mainly using text-based software like the shell, bash, tmux and vim e…

GUI or no GUI, apparently, people can either program or not, and it's been this way since the '60s, at least. https://blog.codinghorror.com/separating-programming-sheep-f...

The paper that post was based on was famously retracted: http://retractionwatch.com/2014/07/18/the-camel-doesnt-have-...

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#72

Post by noisymemories »

swiley wrote: post #28

I've seen plenty of visual programming tools and lots of other things to help "non programmers." I've even helped build one. The fact is that if you can think and communicate precisely enough to describe your ideas then you can enter them into a computer fairly easily in a language like python or basic. If you can't then no matter how fancy your tools are you still need something intelligent (currently a human progra…

Agreed. My day job revolves around "visual dev tools" like VVVV, Reaktor and Unity/Playmaker, and "Should I use a GUI or a scripting language" is rarely the issue. I've seen Art Students learn the basics of C# rather easily, same for the java dialect used by Processing.

The biggest issue are always the skills required to bring their ideas into actual code. Most of those tools still require an extremely advanced knowledge of calculus, DSP theory and linear algebra. Imagine if a fashion designer wanted to display a set of generative images displayed in the background following the catwalk ground vibrations (this was a real request). Even if he/she could accurately describe their idea, that would be still several magnitudes outside their STEM Skills. Most of the times we end up hiring an external dev who will be forced to use such visual tools, making his job even worse.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#73

Post by erikbye »

regularfry wrote: post #71
erikbye wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GUI or no GUI, apparently, people can either program or not, and it's been this way since the '60s, at least. https://blog.codinghorror.com/separating-programming-sheep-f...

The paper that post was based on was famously retracted: http://retractionwatch.com/2014/07/18/the-camel-doesnt-have-...

I see. I'd still posit that I don't think GUI usage and programming aptitude correlates. But, all the data I have is anecdotal.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#74

Post by pjc50 »

andr3w321 wrote: post #30

What I'd really like is a smarter compiler. My normal dev process is 1. Write code 2. Run code 3. See error 4. Google error 5. Write code to fix error 6. Repeat I'd like a compiler that helps speed up steps 3-5. I know IDEs do some of this, but I'd like a compiler that automatically fixes errors instead of just telling me what went wrong. One that fixes parentheses that I left off or automatically fixes typos in vari…

Typesafe languages are potentially a lot better here; they move "see error" to before "run code". Visual Studio or even Eclipse are quite good at inserting parens or quotes for you, warning if they're not there, and providing completion over identifier names to avoid spelling errors.

> One that knows to keep things DRY and creates a function for me when it sees the same similar code written twice

This is potentially an interesting idea.

> One that knows when I wrote an inefficient bubble sort and swaps it out with a faster sorting algorithm etc.

This is also the sort of thing that optimises out your security-critical delay loop or memory wipe.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#75

Post by arethuza »

adrianN wrote: post #52
quickthrower2 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People may be capable of programming, but are not programmers. They do some other full time job and can't invest 2000 hours per year for 5 years to become efficient at all the detailed things the programmers have to deal with. The use case is people who can excel at Excel, but don't want to learn about dependency injection, semantic versioning, exception handling etc.

If you can excel in Excel, you certainly can do similar jobs with Python. You don't need dependency injection, semantic versioning (any version control at all!) or exception handling to write a script that turns your data from format A to format B and generates a summary. Most people can probably learn enough Python to do that in two or three weeks. There is a large gap between what professional programmers are expec…

I've known a lot of people to end up using Excel simply because it is the only "programmable" application that is available - if you can't install new applications (which is pretty common in many non-developer environments) then you are stuck with what you get installed for you, which in many cases is Excel.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#76

Post by andr3w321 »

pjc50 wrote: post #74
andr3w321 wrote: post #30

What I'd really like is a smarter compiler. My normal dev process is 1. Write code 2. Run code 3. See error 4. Google error 5. Write code to fix error 6. Repeat I'd like a compiler that helps speed up steps 3-5. I know IDEs do some of this, but I'd like a compiler that automatically fixes errors instead of just telling me what went wrong. One that fixes parentheses that I left off or automatically fixes typos in vari…

Typesafe languages are potentially a lot better here; they move "see error" to before "run code". Visual Studio or even Eclipse are quite good at inserting parens or quotes for you, warning if they're not there, and providing completion over identifier names to avoid spelling errors. > One that knows to keep things DRY and creates a function for me when it sees the same similar code written twice This is potentially…

It wouldn't overwrite your code without your approval of course, but if it could at least provide helpful suggestions that I could choose to approve it would be immensely helpful.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#77

Post by tomclive »

verletx64 wrote: post #16
Kiro wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment sounds like something straight out of a Show HN, not a thread about a 5 year old service with 100,000 users and $100k in monthly revenues. There's obviously a big demand for this so either you're wrong or people using it are actually programmers.

> people using it are actually programmers Kind of wouldn't surprise me if the user numbers had a decent sized (probably not majority) programmer contingent; these kinds of services are a good way to get a quick prototype out, before you legit build something.

I agree. I've seen people discussing sketching out an MVP with Bubble.is and I can see how something like this could be useful to put together a demo.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#78

Post by murukesh_s »

bitwize wrote: post #68
murukesh_s wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coding with text is easy, but then why we there is a gap between getting a prototype/design done and the actual implementation? Text based coding is certainly more efficient in representing logic in a concise way, but the current set of frameworks and tooling on text based environments requires an exhorbitant amount of learning to produce a working application(e.g React), that's where the rapid application developmen…

> Coding with text is easy, but then why we there is a gap between getting a prototype/design done and the actual implementation? The solution for this is simple, really: simply declare the prototype the working implementation, and put devs on the hook for maintaining it.

By prototype, I meant static prototype or the visual design in tools like Balsamiq.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#79

Post by xstartup »

mitchtbaum wrote: post #42
MechanicalTwerk wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem is once you get into coding it yourself, docs/tutorials/stackoverflow make you aware of all sorts of things like dev tools (IDEs, editors, package managers, VCS, VMs, containers, the list is goes on...) or security concepts (csrf tokens, ssl, secrets management, again the list goes on...) and as a non-tehnical person you start to get really uncomfortable and overwhelmed because you don't know what…

http://wiki.c2.com/?IntelligentDefaults http://wiki.c2.com/?SecureByDefault http://wiki.c2.com/?DefaultObject http://wiki.c2.com/?DefaultValue http://wiki.c2.com/?NullObject http://wiki.c2.com/?NullValue

Do you know any other such website? I found these explanations useful.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#80

Post by dahauns »

waytogo wrote: post #57
swiley wrote: post #28

I've seen plenty of visual programming tools and lots of other things to help "non programmers." I've even helped build one. The fact is that if you can think and communicate precisely enough to describe your ideas then you can enter them into a computer fairly easily in a language like python or basic. If you can't then no matter how fancy your tools are you still need something intelligent (currently a human progra…

This and I would go one step further: visual programming tools are like GUIs and they are the main reason that people can't code nowadays. When I switched back to a shell after 20 years I realized how much a GUI hurts, how much I unlearned to work with computers. After decades of Windows and OSX, I got Arch with i3 (so no desktop environment). I am mainly using text-based software like the shell, bash, tmux and vim e…

I think this is a big case of cognitive bias (and get-off-my-lawn-ism ;) ). It's only a small step for you between using a text-based Linux and coding because you've already taken the huge frontload of internalizing the mountains of cognitive load and neccessary, but ungeneralizable knowledge that bash, vim & co. bring with them.
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