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How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

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Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#51

Post by sillysaurus3 »

andr3w321 wrote: post #30

What I'd really like is a smarter compiler. My normal dev process is 1. Write code 2. Run code 3. See error 4. Google error 5. Write code to fix error 6. Repeat I'd like a compiler that helps speed up steps 3-5. I know IDEs do some of this, but I'd like a compiler that automatically fixes errors instead of just telling me what went wrong. One that fixes parentheses that I left off or automatically fixes typos in vari…

One that fixes parentheses that I left off or automatically fixes typos in variable names or function calls.

Webstorm can do some of what you mention:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15514285

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15638652

One that knows to keep things DRY and creates a function for me when it sees the same similar code written twice.

Unfortunately this is "sufficiently smart compiler" territory. I'd love to be wrong about that though.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#52

Post by adrianN »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #43
swiley wrote: post #28

I've seen plenty of visual programming tools and lots of other things to help "non programmers." I've even helped build one. The fact is that if you can think and communicate precisely enough to describe your ideas then you can enter them into a computer fairly easily in a language like python or basic. If you can't then no matter how fancy your tools are you still need something intelligent (currently a human progra…

People may be capable of programming, but are not programmers. They do some other full time job and can't invest 2000 hours per year for 5 years to become efficient at all the detailed things the programmers have to deal with. The use case is people who can excel at Excel, but don't want to learn about dependency injection, semantic versioning, exception handling etc.

If you can excel in Excel, you certainly can do similar jobs with Python. You don't need dependency injection, semantic versioning (any version control at all!) or exception handling to write a script that turns your data from format A to format B and generates a summary. Most people can probably learn enough Python to do that in two or three weeks.

There is a large gap between what professional programmers are expected to know and the minimum skillset needed to write programs that are useful for one specific task. Many people in your typical office would benefit from the ability to (partially) automate some of the tasks they do every day. Implying that they have to invest countless hours to learn how to do that is part of the problem.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#53

Post by MechanicalTwerk »

riquito wrote: post #48
MechanicalTwerk wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying sane and secure defaults in Django or any other web framework should be enough for a beginner to not have to to worry about this stuff? See another issue for beginners trying to figure it out is they have to deal with people online who post 6 links with no explanation as if it's SOOOO obvious.

This is not a tutorial and he/she is not answering to a beginner. A description would have helped nonetheless

> This is not a tutorial and he/she is not answering to a beginner.

Fair.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#54

Post by MechanicalTwerk »

mitchtbaum wrote: post #50
riquito wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a tutorial and he/she is not answering to a beginner. A description would have helped nonetheless

Thanks. MechanicalTwerk, I meant this is how to make that slope less slippery and steep. They're software design patterns -- going with principles and paradigms, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_programming

Agreed that design patterns and just thoughtful design in general can help create frameworks that are easy to get up and running. I guess what I was getting at is that a non-coder could probably stay completely in the browser, maybe even completely on the bubble.is site (bouncing back and forth between the docs and the editor) and have a clear path to launching an app that they can feel comfortable knowing is secure and will probably perform well enough. With Python and Django, they'd have to cobble more things together and the risk that they end up going down some rabbit hole that doesn't quite have to do with their initial goal is greater.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#55

Post by civility »

adrianN wrote: post #52
quickthrower2 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People may be capable of programming, but are not programmers. They do some other full time job and can't invest 2000 hours per year for 5 years to become efficient at all the detailed things the programmers have to deal with. The use case is people who can excel at Excel, but don't want to learn about dependency injection, semantic versioning, exception handling etc.

If you can excel in Excel, you certainly can do similar jobs with Python. You don't need dependency injection, semantic versioning (any version control at all!) or exception handling to write a script that turns your data from format A to format B and generates a summary. Most people can probably learn enough Python to do that in two or three weeks. There is a large gap between what professional programmers are expec…

There are lots of people who do elaborate things in Excel. I'm sure they could learn Python, but they don't and won't. Instead of changing the people, consider that maybe what they want/need is something like Excel but more powerful.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#56

Post by nurettin »

flogic wrote: post #20
Kiro wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment sounds like something straight out of a Show HN, not a thread about a 5 year old service with 100,000 users and $100k in monthly revenues. There's obviously a big demand for this so either you're wrong or people using it are actually programmers.

At what point do you call someone a programmer? They seem to be using "knowing how to code in a traditional programming language". However, I would not use that definition. Most of what we do though is thinking about a problem and how that relates to what computers do. My take would be that everyone actually using this tool either is a programmer or by the nature of what they're doing soon will be.

I'd call my 7 year old C= 64 hacker self a programmer. The real distinction comes from being a professional or not.

If you are a pro, you would know the industry, the hardware, how things communicate, how and why to scale and report things at a higher level, because you've been exposed to the needs and wants of an Enterprise.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#57

Post by waytogo »

swiley wrote: post #28

I've seen plenty of visual programming tools and lots of other things to help "non programmers." I've even helped build one. The fact is that if you can think and communicate precisely enough to describe your ideas then you can enter them into a computer fairly easily in a language like python or basic. If you can't then no matter how fancy your tools are you still need something intelligent (currently a human progra…

This and I would go one step further: visual programming tools are like GUIs and they are the main reason that people can't code nowadays.

When I switched back to a shell after 20 years I realized how much a GUI hurts, how much I unlearned to work with computers. After decades of Windows and OSX, I got Arch with i3 (so no desktop environment). I am mainly using text-based software like the shell, bash, tmux and vim every single day. Then, it's a very small step to program or to get a programmer because you are already programming in little steps here and there and every day (bash scripts, vim macros, etc.) and you deal all the time with text.

Visual tools don't teach you to code, they introduce an unnecessary layer and create an even bigger insecurity when dealing with real code. Real coding with text is quite easy—and this should be the actual message. A very good example for an educative text-based coding environment which is even functional is Logo. But again, the best way to get into coding is to get an OS on your personal computer which focuses on the shell.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#58

Post by icebraining »

civility wrote: post #55
adrianN wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can excel in Excel, you certainly can do similar jobs with Python. You don't need dependency injection, semantic versioning (any version control at all!) or exception handling to write a script that turns your data from format A to format B and generates a summary. Most people can probably learn enough Python to do that in two or three weeks. There is a large gap between what professional programmers are expec…

There are lots of people who do elaborate things in Excel. I'm sure they could learn Python, but they don't and won't. Instead of changing the people, consider that maybe what they want/need is something like Excel but more powerful.

But Bubble doesn't seem like an Excel but more powerful.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#59

Post by mitchtbaum »

MechanicalTwerk wrote: post #54
mitchtbaum wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. MechanicalTwerk, I meant this is how to make that slope less slippery and steep. They're software design patterns -- going with principles and paradigms, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_programming

Agreed that design patterns and just thoughtful design in general can help create frameworks that are easy to get up and running. I guess what I was getting at is that a non-coder could probably stay completely in the browser, maybe even completely on the bubble.is site (bouncing back and forth between the docs and the editor) and have a clear path to launching an app that they can feel comfortable knowing is secure…

> stay completely in the browser [focusing on] ...their initial goal

I believe this is worthwhile long range target that we can build up to on solid foundation, such as component oriented software. As the pieces come together, the harder fought wins that use and prove its foundation early on will pay off greater, later.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#60

Post by icebraining »

murukesh_s wrote: post #49
swiley wrote: post #28

I've seen plenty of visual programming tools and lots of other things to help "non programmers." I've even helped build one. The fact is that if you can think and communicate precisely enough to describe your ideas then you can enter them into a computer fairly easily in a language like python or basic. If you can't then no matter how fancy your tools are you still need something intelligent (currently a human progra…

"fairly easily in a language like python or basic" - I don't know where to start but I can say it goes deeper than that. A language like python or basic might seem simple to programmers or computer science graduates who learned their way through C, C++ or Java, but for a non-programmer, who is still tech savvy (like designers/business analysts etc), it is a complete different experience. How did i know? I had friends…

I agree. And I think Anvil is an even better "modern VB" than Bubble: https://anvil.works/
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