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Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

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Re: Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

#141

Post by sharemywin »

falcolas wrote: post #77
rabbite wrote: post #25

Five paragraphs in, the root of many of her problems: "Her savings long gone, and having never done much long-term financial planning" Six paragraphs in, the root of elderly problems nation-wide: "Nearly one-third of U.S. heads of households ages 55 and older have no pension or retirement savings and a median annual income of about $19,000" Is it possible that the lack of long term financial planning, aka saving mone…

Well, even good financial planning focuses on taking you to 80 in most cases. It also assumes a lot about the future value of your investments - a crash will knock you out for good. It also assumes that the rate of inflation doesn't change, or that your costs of living don't change drastically, or that you don't get a disease which destroys your (and frequently your partner's) savings, whether you survive it or not.

kids, lack of decent income to start with.

Re: Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

#142

Post by derekp7 »

falcolas wrote: post #114
linkmotif wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big Macs are shit salty food that doesn’t make you full and spikes your glycemic load so you’re hungry again in 30 minutes. The American idea that poor people get to organize their time the same way that non poor people get to organize their time is near the core of the problem. The argument that eating fast food saves you time is deeply troublesome because poor people, while disadvantaged in many ways like having to…

Where else can I spend $6, and have 1000+ calories available to me the next minute? Assume I don't have prep time, because I'm not at home, or because I'm already late for my second job in an attempt to provide for myself at minimum wages. A lot of folks don't have the time or energy to stock up for, prepare and cook proper meals, whether rich, poor, or somewhere in between. Call it a tragedy of the modern times.

Tuna sandwich -- half can tuna, mayo, relish, bread, cheese, 360 calories for about $1.02. Prices and calories derived from serving sizes on the various product labels, looking up the products on walmart.com. Takes about a minute to mix the ingredients together and make a few sandwiches.

Can also bake a potato in the microwave, throw some butter, sour cream, shredded cheese, and seasoning on them. Baked potatoes (or skillet fried, etc) make fairly cheap meals.

Pasta is something that is cheap and easy to make, for time management purposes, boil it while you are taking a shower in the morning. Throw it (along with some tomato sauce) in a ziplock baggie in the morning, take it with you for lunch.

I realize that time is limited esp. if you are working 80 hour weeks at minimum wage. And then there is the time it takes to stop by walmart to pick up the ingredients. However many people that I know that complain about lack of time also spend quite a bit on either watching TV, or taking smoke breaks, or other things that would be better spent on meal preparation instead of running to McDonalds.

Re: Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

#143

Post by derekp7 »

Balgair wrote: post #132
jstarfish wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the time the article was written, she was in the last few years of her life. If they're spent doing nothing but hustling to pay bills, and there is no enjoyment to be afforded outside of that, why bother finishing the last few? Being old sucks enough as it is, with all your faculties failing and everybody abandoning you. She's dead now. She got to enjoy the museum and a steak while she still had a chance. I don't…

I'm not sure there is a name for the GP's 'fallacy', but I think there should be. The idea is that one person in the whole history of the world had the worst, most painful, most terrible, most suffered, most miserable life that ever happened anywhere and for all time. All other people are just griping and moaning; they could have had it worse, so shut-up. Like, how mean is that thought process? We need to be helping…

That is the fallacy of relative priation, I think.

Re: Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

#144

Post by sharemywin »

turc1656 wrote: post #111
jorblumesea wrote: post #49

I wonder if these kinds of stories will prompt real political will for things like single payer healthcare or a real social safety net.

A "real" social safety net? Is that a joke? As though we already don't have tons of social programs? Sure, the US might not be as insanely generous as some European nations, but the US has medicare, medicaid, food stamps (SNAP), social security, welfare (SSI), disability, housing assistance, CHIP, WIC, ACA subsidies, section 8 housing assistance, home energy assistance, and probably even more I can't think of or don'…

Social Security: Last year, 24 percent of the budget, or $916 billion, paid for Social Security, which provided monthly retirement benefits averaging $1,360 to 41 million retired workers in December 2016. Social Security also provided benefits to 3 million spouses and children of retired workers, 6 million surviving children and spouses of deceased workers, and 10.6 million disabled workers and their eligible dependents in December 2016.

Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP, and marketplace subsidies: Four health insurance programs — Medicare, Medicaid, the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP), and Affordable Care Act (ACA) marketplace subsidies — together accounted for 26 percent of the budget in 2016, or $1 trillion. Nearly three-fifths of this amount, or $594 billion, went to Medicare, which provides health coverage to around 57 million people who are over age 65 or have disabilities. The rest of this category funds Medicaid, CHIP, and ACA subsidy and exchange costs. In a typical month, Medicaid and CHIP provide health care or long-term care to about 74 million low-income children, parents, elderly people, and people with disabilities. (Both Medicaid and CHIP require matching payments from the states.) In 2016, 9 million of the 11 million people enrolled in health insurance exchanges received ACA subsidies, at an estimated cost of about $31 billion.

Re: Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

#145

Post by sharemywin »

sharemywin wrote: post #144
turc1656 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "real" social safety net? Is that a joke? As though we already don't have tons of social programs? Sure, the US might not be as insanely generous as some European nations, but the US has medicare, medicaid, food stamps (SNAP), social security, welfare (SSI), disability, housing assistance, CHIP, WIC, ACA subsidies, section 8 housing assistance, home energy assistance, and probably even more I can't think of or don'…

Social Security: Last year, 24 percent of the budget, or $916 billion, paid for Social Security, which provided monthly retirement benefits averaging $1,360 to 41 million retired workers in December 2016. Social Security also provided benefits to 3 million spouses and children of retired workers, 6 million surviving children and spouses of deceased workers, and 10.6 million disabled workers and their eligible depende…

~$1272/mo per person on social security( around 60 m people)

~868 / mo per person for medicare(57 m)

(both of these they paid all their life into)

~$668 /mo Medicaid and CHIP provide health care or long-term care to about 74 million low-income children, parents, elderly people, and people with disabilities.

Re: Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

#146

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

turc1656 wrote: post #130
JustSomeNobody wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let me put it another way - I personally have never met a single person who was responsible, level-headed, and made rational decisions with their money ever wind up in a scenario even remotely like this woman's. What does this prove? Those people wouldn't be hanging out on HN for sure! Edit: But you're right, you're not wrong for having your opinion.

It goes to show that what I said isn't an "attitude" or mindset, but rather a simple observation of reality. Mainly that decisions have consequences. What I said is nothing new, yet you say that it is wrong to have that attitude. Meanwhile basically everything we have ever seen supports the claim that if you prepare and plan for the future you are in nearly every circumstance far better off in the long run.

Well no, it shows that your reality is rather small. Maybe you should meet people outside of the normal circles you hang in. There are plenty of people who are responsible with their monety and yet have been crushed by circumstance.

Re: Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

#147

Post by peterwwillis »

tptacek wrote: post #139
peterwwillis wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like the econ 101 assumptions. The public safety net is not designed for real people. If she could declare bankruptcy, don't you think she would have? She's 80, she has heard of the concept. The vehicle is her only shelter. Have you ever tried to pay rent with bad credit and no employment history? Not to mention, please show me a single place in all of the united states where rent is $268 per month and isn't…

What do you mean, "if" she can declare bankruptcy? She makes $10/hour part time and all her assets are in a trailer. She is obviously Chapter 7 eligible. You can rent a studio apartment in Chicago, in an apartment building (not a "crack motel"), for $350/mo. That's an apartment in the middle of a relatively expensive urban area. Clearly, there are non-crack-motel apartments that are significantly nicer than the Chica…

If some miracle allows for the debt and loan to disappear, there's just the $323 a month for medical (which is probably not spread out over time, and she would have no credit to buffer it, so she would need savings, which she doesn't have). In theory she could have $1093 to spend on rent, food, transportation and incidentals.

But there are some requirements to file chapter 7:

- First she needs to document all her financial records, which of course she has been doing in expectation of this point in her life

- She needs to hire a bankruptcy lawyer, because otherwise she basically has to become her own lawyer and figure out her state/local bankruptcy laws and steps, which is very difficult for most people.

- Non-exempt property, such as cash, a second car or car she doesn't use for work, is sold to pay the debt. Does an RV you live in count as a car you use for work? if not, there goes her home.

- She has to get time off to go to the 341 meeting and do the mandatory credit counseling and debtor education classes and certification

- Filing for bankruptcy costs between $1,400 and $4,000 on average in filing fees and other costs.

- The whole process takes about six months on average, assuming everything works out.

I would love to know how somebody who's living paycheck to paycheck and can barely afford milk and bread can accomplish this. Clearly there are obstacles that she may not be able to overcome.

But I don't think anyone really cares about reality, looking at the way people in this thread are simply dismissing her using various theoretical devices to prove she simply isn't doing it right. If it were easy or simple to fix her life, she probably would have, because she is much more motivated to have a better life than random people on the internet. (Not that people not choosing to look at reality bothers me - it's people who do not fully understand the situation pretending that they know better that bothers me)

Re: Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

#148

Post by tptacek »

peterwwillis wrote: post #147
tptacek wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean, "if" she can declare bankruptcy? She makes $10/hour part time and all her assets are in a trailer. She is obviously Chapter 7 eligible. You can rent a studio apartment in Chicago, in an apartment building (not a "crack motel"), for $350/mo. That's an apartment in the middle of a relatively expensive urban area. Clearly, there are non-crack-motel apartments that are significantly nicer than the Chica…

If some miracle allows for the debt and loan to disappear, there's just the $323 a month for medical (which is probably not spread out over time, and she would have no credit to buffer it, so she would need savings, which she doesn't have). In theory she could have $1093 to spend on rent, food, transportation and incidentals. But there are some requirements to file chapter 7: - First she needs to document all her fin…

What "miracle"? Chapter 7 will eliminate her debt. That's the point of Chapter 7.

She'll need a professional to file for her, that's true. So, she should do what most people who file Chapter 7 do: use the money (saved gradually) she'd pointlessly burn trying to service the debt to hire someone to file Chapter 7.

In the meantime, she should immediately stop making debt service payments. It does not matter that the process will take 6 months, because her creditors have no practical recourse against her. Watch someone with a six figure income and significant luxury assets simply stop paying credit card bills that are integer multiples of this debt, and see what happens. Hint: the debt decreases as the credit card companies and their collectors realize you've stopped valuing your credit score. They're hoping beyond hope you'll spend some amount of money, any amount of money to avoid Chapter 7, and they will keep hoping for years.

The majority of Chapter 7 bankruptcies are no-asset bankruptcies. People who own homes, cars, and retirement accounts keep them in Chapter 7. A 79 year old woman living in a trailer isn't going to sell anything to retire credit card debt in Chapter 7.

It is not only wrong but borderline irresponsible to suggest that someone in this person's circumstances entertain the idea of sending another dollar to a credit card company. The credit card companies are victimizing her today, and she has a clear means of defending herself. She needs to be informed and counseled to make the decision to avail herself of that defense.

As for "reality", I've managed this process for people. I'm confident what I'm saying is reality, just like I'm confident that you can find a place to live in a "non-crack-motel" for less than $290/mo.

Re: Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

#149

Post by peterwwillis »

tptacek wrote: post #148
peterwwillis wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If some miracle allows for the debt and loan to disappear, there's just the $323 a month for medical (which is probably not spread out over time, and she would have no credit to buffer it, so she would need savings, which she doesn't have). In theory she could have $1093 to spend on rent, food, transportation and incidentals. But there are some requirements to file chapter 7: - First she needs to document all her fin…

What "miracle"? Chapter 7 will eliminate her debt. That's the point of Chapter 7. She'll need a professional to file for her, that's true. So, she should do what most people who file Chapter 7 do: use the money (saved gradually) she'd pointlessly burn trying to service the debt to hire someone to file Chapter 7. In the meantime, she should immediately stop making debt service payments. It does not matter that the pro…

I'm certainly not advocating paying the debt. I'm saying dodge it. But she still will have difficulty saving up for bankruptcy.

With the little money she does get, she has to pay for transportation, food, communication, and health and auto insurance. Assuming she abandoned the RV she could maybe find one of these cheap Chicago sublets (which I assume are not in a food or transportation desert) and start saving money (assuming creditors can't garnish social security or pension). But she would still get hit with the occasional emergency bill, extending the time it takes to save. Once she finally saves enough she can go through bankruptcy and probably be successful. So then she could in theory just continue living in the sublet, or wherever in the country has the cheapest housing, until she dies.

It's not a very promising life to look forward to, and I don't know how many people would really just stop what they're doing and go full-on monk to recover over this kind of long term process.

Re: Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

#150

Post by tptacek »

peterwwillis wrote: post #149
tptacek wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What "miracle"? Chapter 7 will eliminate her debt. That's the point of Chapter 7. She'll need a professional to file for her, that's true. So, she should do what most people who file Chapter 7 do: use the money (saved gradually) she'd pointlessly burn trying to service the debt to hire someone to file Chapter 7. In the meantime, she should immediately stop making debt service payments. It does not matter that the pro…

I'm certainly not advocating paying the debt. I'm saying dodge it. But she still will have difficulty saving up for bankruptcy. With the little money she does get, she has to pay for transportation, food, communication, and health and auto insurance. Assuming she abandoned the RV she could maybe find one of these cheap Chicago sublets (which I assume are not in a food or transportation desert) and start saving money…

At this point I think we've both disposed of the idea that the $50,000 in credit card debt is the burden it sounds like. I'm mostly writing because, again, I think a lot of people from that generation are loathe to defend themselves against credit card companies through bankruptcy law.

Either way: if she's getting good counsel, she's not paying the credit card companies. They're not getting another dime from her.

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