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Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

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Re: Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

#131

Post by rayiner »

peterwwillis wrote: post #106
rayiner wrote: post #20

> But there is little money to see the sights. She earns too much to receive food stamps, and a lot of it goes to groceries. She tries to eat organic food, with her low blood sugar. That rules out cheap but filling Big Macs — as well as the food kitchens whose mass-produced meals, she decided, are unhealthful. Why do newspapers use as examples people who seem to have done everything wrong? Is it because formerly midd…

You didn't read the article, because just assuming X amount of money can work for anyone is not even remotely realistic. She owes $50,000 on her credit cards. Let's assume an 18% interest rate. The minimum she could pay to actually pay off the debt (just enough to even pay the interest) would be $765 per month (54% of her income), which would take 22 years and 1 month to pay off, with $152,024 paid in interest. She a…

> You didn't read the article, because just assuming X amount of money can work for anyone is not even remotely realistic

But we’re talking about the public safety net here, and that’s exactly the assumption you have to make.

She doesn’t need to pay her credit card debt. She can just declare bankruptcy. That’s the point of bankruptcy. She also doesn’t need a vehicle that costs as much as rent in small town America.

Re: Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

#132

Post by Balgair »

jstarfish wrote: post #94
turc1656 wrote: post #68

"...and faced yet another nasty choice between need and want. Should she go to the dentist, or take a guided tour of buildings designed by her favorite architect, Frank Lloyd Wright? Each cost $100. She picked Frank Lloyd Wright. Her teeth could wait." Wow, with decisions like that it's no wonder that woman is in a bad position. Honestly, though - am I supposed to feel bad for someone like this? You can bet that if I…

At the time the article was written, she was in the last few years of her life. If they're spent doing nothing but hustling to pay bills, and there is no enjoyment to be afforded outside of that, why bother finishing the last few? Being old sucks enough as it is, with all your faculties failing and everybody abandoning you. She's dead now. She got to enjoy the museum and a steak while she still had a chance. I don't…

I'm not sure there is a name for the GP's 'fallacy', but I think there should be. The idea is that one person in the whole history of the world had the worst, most painful, most terrible, most suffered, most miserable life that ever happened anywhere and for all time. All other people are just griping and moaning; they could have had it worse, so shut-up.

Like, how mean is that thought process? We need to be helping each other out, not comparing the size of our scars and the length of our therapy sessions. So what if someone hasn't had it was bad as you or some hypothetical person? Be kind.

Re: Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

#133

Post by moosey »

mattnewton wrote: post #26
rabbite wrote: post #25

Five paragraphs in, the root of many of her problems: "Her savings long gone, and having never done much long-term financial planning" Six paragraphs in, the root of elderly problems nation-wide: "Nearly one-third of U.S. heads of households ages 55 and older have no pension or retirement savings and a median annual income of about $19,000" Is it possible that the lack of long term financial planning, aka saving mone…

A lot of the sources of savings were in houses, which burst in 2008.

The stock market crash in the early 2000's was really brutal for a lot of folks as well.

Re: Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

#134

Post by sharemywin »

pc86 wrote: post #119
sharemywin wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably like $2400-$2800 if it's a pension and social security.

> > This lady gets almost $17,000 a year in pension and social security 17000 / 12 = 1416.67 So no, not "probably like $2400-2800"

I guess I read it differently:

This lady gets (almost $17,000 a year in pension) and social security

Sorry, your probably right.

Re: Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

#135

Post by enraged_camel »

linkmotif wrote: post #109
falcolas wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big macs provide about ~600 calories and 25g of protein for $4. The whole meal is over 1000 calories for $6. It's hard to beat in terms of speed or price. Nutrition? Yeah, pretty low (though it's a good source of iron and Vitamin A). Sure, I could make a meal with more calories for a little cheaper... but at a high up-front cost in money, and an prep/cook cost in time.

Big Macs are shit salty food that doesn’t make you full and spikes your glycemic load so you’re hungry again in 30 minutes. The American idea that poor people get to organize their time the same way that non poor people get to organize their time is near the core of the problem. The argument that eating fast food saves you time is deeply troublesome because poor people, while disadvantaged in many ways like having to…

>>Big Macs are shit salty food that doesn’t make you full and spikes your glycemic load so you’re hungry again in 30 minutes.

Even if you eat 1000 calories of pure sugar, there is no way in hell you will be hungry again in 30 minutes.

Re: Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

#136

Post by peterwwillis »

rayiner wrote: post #131
peterwwillis wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't read the article, because just assuming X amount of money can work for anyone is not even remotely realistic. She owes $50,000 on her credit cards. Let's assume an 18% interest rate. The minimum she could pay to actually pay off the debt (just enough to even pay the interest) would be $765 per month (54% of her income), which would take 22 years and 1 month to pay off, with $152,024 paid in interest. She a…

> You didn't read the article, because just assuming X amount of money can work for anyone is not even remotely realistic But we’re talking about the public safety net here, and that’s exactly the assumption you have to make. She doesn’t need to pay her credit card debt. She can just declare bankruptcy. That’s the point of bankruptcy. She also doesn’t need a vehicle that costs as much as rent in small town America.

This is like the econ 101 assumptions. The public safety net is not designed for real people.

If she could declare bankruptcy, don't you think she would have? She's 80, she has heard of the concept.

The vehicle is her only shelter. Have you ever tried to pay rent with bad credit and no employment history? Not to mention, please show me a single place in all of the united states where rent is $268 per month and isn't a crack motel.

Re: Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

#137

Post by tptacek »

peterwwillis wrote: post #106
rayiner wrote: post #20

> But there is little money to see the sights. She earns too much to receive food stamps, and a lot of it goes to groceries. She tries to eat organic food, with her low blood sugar. That rules out cheap but filling Big Macs — as well as the food kitchens whose mass-produced meals, she decided, are unhealthful. Why do newspapers use as examples people who seem to have done everything wrong? Is it because formerly midd…

You didn't read the article, because just assuming X amount of money can work for anyone is not even remotely realistic. She owes $50,000 on her credit cards. Let's assume an 18% interest rate. The minimum she could pay to actually pay off the debt (just enough to even pay the interest) would be $765 per month (54% of her income), which would take 22 years and 1 month to pay off, with $152,024 paid in interest. She a…

She can't pay back the credit cards. It is a grave mistake for her to even attempt it.

Unfortunately, and I think particularly with norms and expectations from pre-gen-X (and pre-universal-financialization) culture, it's a mistake a lot of people make. It's tragic: these are people who need every dollar they make, shoveling enormous amounts of their capital into a black hole. In reality, attempting to service these debts prolongs their exposure.

It's these sorts of bad decisions that I think Rayiner is referring to upthread. For someone in the financial situation the subject of this article is in, credit card debt should be off the table, full stop.

Re: Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

#138

Post by dagw »

linkmotif wrote: post #109
falcolas wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big macs provide about ~600 calories and 25g of protein for $4. The whole meal is over 1000 calories for $6. It's hard to beat in terms of speed or price. Nutrition? Yeah, pretty low (though it's a good source of iron and Vitamin A). Sure, I could make a meal with more calories for a little cheaper... but at a high up-front cost in money, and an prep/cook cost in time.

Big Macs are shit salty food that doesn’t make you full and spikes your glycemic load so you’re hungry again in 30 minutes. The American idea that poor people get to organize their time the same way that non poor people get to organize their time is near the core of the problem. The argument that eating fast food saves you time is deeply troublesome because poor people, while disadvantaged in many ways like having to…

generally have the lowest premium on time because their time is worthless.

That is completely backwards. The marginal utility for a poor person working an extra 10 hours a week is massive since it might very well the difference between being able to pay rent or not. The marginal utility for me working an extra 10 hours a week is probably negative since I'm already 'rich enough' to buy everything I need so the extra money doesn't mean that much to me and those extra 10 hours will keep me away from things I care lot more about (like being able to spend an hour cooking for and eating with my family)

Re: Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

#139

Post by tptacek »

peterwwillis wrote: post #136
rayiner wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You didn't read the article, because just assuming X amount of money can work for anyone is not even remotely realistic But we’re talking about the public safety net here, and that’s exactly the assumption you have to make. She doesn’t need to pay her credit card debt. She can just declare bankruptcy. That’s the point of bankruptcy. She also doesn’t need a vehicle that costs as much as rent in small town America.

This is like the econ 101 assumptions. The public safety net is not designed for real people. If she could declare bankruptcy, don't you think she would have? She's 80, she has heard of the concept. The vehicle is her only shelter. Have you ever tried to pay rent with bad credit and no employment history? Not to mention, please show me a single place in all of the united states where rent is $268 per month and isn't…

What do you mean, "if" she can declare bankruptcy? She makes $10/hour part time and all her assets are in a trailer. She is obviously Chapter 7 eligible.

You can rent a studio apartment in Chicago, in an apartment building (not a "crack motel"), for $350/mo. That's an apartment in the middle of a relatively expensive urban area. Clearly, there are non-crack-motel apartments that are significantly nicer than the Chicago apartment further afield.

Re: Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016)

#140

Post by [deleted] »

peterwwillis wrote: post #136
rayiner wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You didn't read the article, because just assuming X amount of money can work for anyone is not even remotely realistic But we’re talking about the public safety net here, and that’s exactly the assumption you have to make. She doesn’t need to pay her credit card debt. She can just declare bankruptcy. That’s the point of bankruptcy. She also doesn’t need a vehicle that costs as much as rent in small town America.

This is like the econ 101 assumptions. The public safety net is not designed for real people. If she could declare bankruptcy, don't you think she would have? She's 80, she has heard of the concept. The vehicle is her only shelter. Have you ever tried to pay rent with bad credit and no employment history? Not to mention, please show me a single place in all of the united states where rent is $268 per month and isn't…

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