Would it be possible to create a "Tax evasion as a service" where one can buy shares, and said company will offshore the pool of money allowing individuals to get benefits of big corporate tax?
Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook
351–360 of 817 posts
Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook
#352Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sorry, I can't. I am a working man, not a philosopher. But please look around you. Every great thing around me was created by a free(-ish) market: this PC, my car, my job, the materials in my home, the heating engine, the food I get in the restaurant, the entertainment on my TV, everything. Then every crappy experience in my existence has something to do with the government: state hospitals, infrastructure, the DMV a…
I find it a bit disturbing that you value entertainment on TV as "great" and "state hospitals" and "schools" as crappy. In fact, overall, it seems like you value as "great" everything around you that don't implies interacting directly with other humans, and as "crappy" about everything that does. So if the free market purpose is to value antisocial products while making every social bonds look crappy, well, I'm not s…
You're misinterpreting my quick examples. I am talking about the whole product (or my experience of it) rather than about the people involved. The people are often great, including in those schools and hospitals I disliked so much.
My best absolute best experiences are with people and involve no markets nor governments: family, friends and professional peers.
Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook
#353What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…
These companies evading taxes are responsible for increased hardship and suffering of a society as well, leeching off of the nations they exist in, and being able to outcompete the honest organizations and people in them. The damages are far greater than the tax avoided. "They are doing it too" isn't a valid excuse either.
Freeloaders.
Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook
#354Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, it's more about familiarity with the system than work required to game them. I've met one-man operations paying effectively the same rate as Apple, they just know the legalese well enough to do it on their own.
All companies are supposed to be equals regarding taxes. If a part of them can trick this rule, then it is not fair and must be fixed. I agree that there is a part of entrepreneurship which include being able to understand the rules and laws and use them efficiently, but all these familiarities used to game the system are only valid if only a minority of the people use them. One people finding this trick is ok, but b…
> One people finding this trick is ok, but big companies being able to buy these tricks is another scale.
Maybe using these tricks was what actually enabled these "one people" to grow into big companies? I don't think it's as simple as "Small companies all pay their taxes, only big companies cheat because the system is unfair".
Imho there's plenty of opportunities to cheat without ever being discovered as a cheater, the vast majority of people simply don't notice them as such or when they do refuse to abuse them, out of a moral obligation to society.
That last part isn't the same for everybody. I dunno which election it was, but I think it was the GOP who ran on this whole "Maker" theme where they pretended people are all living in isolation and nobody uses public infrastructure for any of their success. That pretty much summed up the whole mindset behind "not paying taxes" pretty aptly.
Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook
#355Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are actually things like the expatriation tax and "name and shame" provisions which discourage people from renouncing for tax purposes. Also (note that I am not an accountant or lawyer and this is not advice), most ordinary people won't see any problem with taxation while abroad beyond the actual inconvenience of filing a 1040 because the foreign earned income exclusion ( https://www.irs.gov/individuals/interna…
> most ordinary people won't see any problem with taxation while abroad beyond the actual inconvenience of filing a 1040 because the foreign earned income exclusion Well that and most banks refusing American customers because they don't want to deal with FBAR/FINCEN reporting. My American friends here in Europe have a really difficult time opening a bank account due to this rule.
It's not only foreign banks refusing American customers. American companies such as Fidelity, Vanguard, Charles Schwab and so on won't open investment accounts for Americans abroad and will freeze accounts if they discover you are abroad.
Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook
#356Earlier quoted context omitted.
They aren't, for the most part, doing anything illegal though. They are using the existing laws to their best advantage. The fix for this can't be trying to appeal to their morals. It would have to be something else that just limits the legal choices. Edit: If you disagree, are you saying that shaming them into not doing this solely on some moral compass is the right fix? Does that scale?
The fix can certainly involve appealing to morals and human responsibility. A company is, after all, just a group of people. This should be a very strong tactic considering how liberal Silicon Valley is. The major players preach constantly about progressive ideals, yet fail to do more than the minimum when push comes to shove. My business partner and I purposefully pay normal taxes, avoiding accountants' crazy tax re…
Could shareholders sue if Apple “opted out” of their legal tax avoidance strategy? We are talking about some very material money here, not an executive bonus pool sized chunk of cash, but like national GDP sized money.
Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook
#357What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…
This. I run a small company as well, and taxes are a damn maze.
I just checked the tax authorities website in this country, and there are no less than 121 different tax-exempt health activities – things my company can pay for me, without having to also pay taxes. For most other things, there's sales tax (possibly other kinds of tax too, but let's limit it ourselves for brevity) that comes in at no less than three different levels, depending on what you're paying for. Many things, most things, my company can't legally pay for directly, but must pay me income, which I then pay for, as well as paying the taxes. This probably makes sense, except of course now I'm being taxed twice: once on the income itself, and then again on the expense. Oh unless of course it's a deductible expense, in which case I might be able to deduct it from my year end declaration. Also this depends on what it is I'm paying for, some services are subsidized and the subsidy is applied immediately, so I'm only paying half the taxes – unless I've used up my subsidy limit (which I can't check.)
I don't mind paying taxes, I really don't, because I can clearly see what I get for them for the most part. The streets are clean, health care is paid for and mostly seems to work for me, the garbage truck shows up on time, the water flows freely from my taps, and the electric grid never seems to have any issues. My friends with children get to take a lot of time off to care for their kids, and when they are old enough for day care that works too. I had the privilege of attending great public schools, and higher education is paid for. The list goes on.
I really don't mind paying a reasonable amount of taxes, and I'm not even that upset about companies and people investing their money wisely. But when there are legal ways of "optimizing" your tax foot print, if you can afford the expertise to do so, it becomes really demoralizing to pay your taxes as asked.
Corporations and individuals aren't going to change their ways, so government has to step in and fix these things. It's probably real hard to do, but it needs to be done.
Either that or provide tax optimization services for free, so we can all enjoy these same incredibly low tax rates. (At which point tax reform probably has to happen anyway.)
Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook
#358Earlier quoted context omitted.
1. Companies which parent owner is based in the US. Companies are already paying taxes based on consolidated regime, it is just that they consolidate all entities within a tax jurisdiction. So the concept exists, it could just be extended. 2. You wouldn't have a double taxation. You would apply to companies what the US applies to US individuals. If you have a subsidiary in Germany and paying local taxes of 10, but th…
Alright here are my new loopholes to evade your amendments: I'll set it up so that my other company in the other country is sharing profits with my main company. Maybe I'll have a family member or someone I trust actually own that company. Perhaps this doesn't work for some reason that already exists in the tax code, but I've already met the letter of the law that you spelled out here. Obviously that would be easy to…
I think what you are describing is a company not based in the US not having to pay this tax. Effectively companies fleeing the US. Agree that this would likely be a consequence. But that's the price to pay to maintaining high tax rates. Countries don't like competition but the reality is that this competition exists among them.
Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook
#359Earlier quoted context omitted.
I really can't understand if you're being ironic or not, but I hope you are because Microsoft has been under fire for a long time for their behaviour and even fined for it in the past. No "invisible hand" there, more like someone yelling loudly at them.
No irony here. All that yelling and fines had zero result in changing Microsoft's behavior. They just paid up. You know what worked? Some good, old fashioned competition. And that raised up naturally, through free market.
Huh?
They had to change some things in the European market, them not doing anything at all is completely bogus.
I'm not delusional enough to think the fines were high impact though.
Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook
#360Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sorry, I can't. I am a working man, not a philosopher. But please look around you. Every great thing around me was created by a free(-ish) market: this PC, my car, my job, the materials in my home, the heating engine, the food I get in the restaurant, the entertainment on my TV, everything. Then every crappy experience in my existence has something to do with the government: state hospitals, infrastructure, the DMV a…
I find it a bit disturbing that you value entertainment on TV as "great" and "state hospitals" and "schools" as crappy. In fact, overall, it seems like you value as "great" everything around you that don't implies interacting directly with other humans, and as "crappy" about everything that does. So if the free market purpose is to value antisocial products while making every social bonds look crappy, well, I'm not s…
Look at the innovation pace of products delivered by free market vs those by government. If government made computers, they would still be big as room and only the rich could afford them. Meanwhile free market delivered computers into your pocket with power and capabilities that just 10 years ago no one would believe.
Our education system preparing our kids for future is still basically the same as our grand-grand-parents was.
Just imagine where our hospitals and schools could be if not crippled by government..