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Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

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Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#231

Post by simias »

wjnc wrote: post #8

Dear Herr Krach, thank you for your letter. I think you misunderstand how business works. Apple is a profit seeking corporation. Profits we make, we hope to distribute to our shareholders. Paying taxes is an obligation with which we comply, both to the letter and in spirit. We meet such obligations, but not nilly-willy. Our shareholders would not look kindly upon executives who pay more taxes than necessary. Avoidanc…

I completely agree that it's naive to expect big corporations to selflessly pay more taxes. It's never going to work.

But it's not really up to individual countries' tax code either. The problem is that you have a global race to the bottom with these companies, they'll move to the countries with the lowest tax rates. See the current competition for which city will end up hosting Amazon's new complex.

At the very least the solution has to come from the European Union. We need to figure out a better to unify our tax codes and retaliate against multinationals that don't pay their fair share of taxes. We need to stop this competition between member states that leaves all of us poorer in the end.

I'm sure the EU is capable of coercing Apple and friends into paying more taxes, as long as it's united. This is clearly not the case at the moment and that's the problem SZ should work on, not begging foreign multinationals to please pay more taxes.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#232

Post by soVeryTired »

dennis_jeeves wrote: post #208

Got to chuckle when articles like this appear. Essentially it means this: I paid my taxes, you haven't. Translated it means ( in my opinion): I got robbed, but you didn't get robbed, and I feel envious of you. Taxes are an extortion by the government and it is fair game that anyone should try and evade it legally or otherwise. Extortion cannot be justified even if some of the money is used to deliver useful services…

Let me guess. You're in favour of private healthcare, private security, private education, and no social safety net. In short, nothing to aid social mobility, and nothing to restrain powerful people who have gained the upper hand.

You know, to some of us, that libertarian utopia sounds like a fucking nightmare.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#233

Post by cm2187 »

dontreact wrote: post #177
cm2187 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All they are doing is arbitraging loopholes in the tax systems. Politicians have been trying to solve way too many problems by taxes (taxing differently x and y) or giving tax gifts to donors and various organised interests. As a result it creates an arbitrage-able tax system. I wouldn't point your annoyance to those who are optimising their taxes (after all this is merely their fiduciary duties to their share holder…

I think you are fundamentally missing the nature of the loopholes being exploited. They have less to do with the complexity of the taxes in one country but rather the complexity that emerges naturally from different countries having different tax codes. How would a flat tax help avoid this scheme for example?: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/28/business/Doubl... The whole point is they skip the U.S. tax co…

If you don't have control over foreign loopholes, you eliminate them by applying to companies what you apply to individuals in the US. I.e. that US companies may not pay less taxes than they would pay if their activity was all in the US.

It would of course increase the effective tax rate in for US large companies a lot, but the US corporate tax rate is very high vs other countries. If it becomes efficient you can afford to reduce it.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#234

Post by Joeri »

eksemplar wrote: post #146
nickpp wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By default, big companies always get preferential treatment from governments. Open a mega-factory? They get tax cuts, cheap real estate, free utilities. Why? Those shiny new jobs look great on a politician's resume for the next election... What does the little business guy get? A letter of "don't forget to pay your taxes in full or else" It's time to accept the fact that governments are NOT a fair and impartial warde…

Well, the flip side of this is that the society we build and paid for with income tax has become a huge risk because of automation. We’re wealthier than ever, but we can’t use the wealth to society, because we’ve moved it from the masses to the few. Now this probably isn’t a popular thing to say in American contexts because it sounds like socialism, but historically the levels of inequality we’re seeing now have lead…

The way I view it is in terms of an idealized society. What is the ideal society? One where everyone must work their entire life? Or one where people are free to choose what they do with their time, even if they don't want to work at all? I would argue the latter.

Automation offers a unique ability to deliver the idealized society, but first we have to get rid of the notion that full employment is the goal. If anything, modern governments should be trying to lower employment, not raise it (or rather provide more choice to not work). You can't do that without a taxation strategy shift form income to capital gains.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#235

Post by TrinaryWorksToo »

repomies691 wrote: post #219
loceng wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies evading taxes are responsible for increased hardship and suffering of a society as well, leeching off of the nations they exist in, and being able to outcompete the honest organizations and people in them. The damages are far greater than the tax avoided. "They are doing it too" isn't a valid excuse either.

So... Basically Apple is increasing the suffering by creating all those laptops and iphones? That is very difficult for me to grasp. Apple creates computers and phones which make peoples lives a lot better, and people are willing to pay for those. Why is the suffering increasing? I guess world would be a better place if apple would pay more taxes, but I'm pretty sure that world would be worse place without Apple, whe…

Think about it this way, if I had an objectively better phone than the iPhone I would go out of business because Apple keeps more of their money in dishonest tax schemes. They hurt innovation. And that money is supposed to go to governments to use, which it doesn't, hampering the ability for others to thrive. Now there's is less competition

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#236

Post by tareqak »

sschueller wrote: post #86
styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

Same goes for US individuals living abroad not having any business relations or even holdings in the US. Yet they are required to file and pay US taxes in addition to local taxes.

I actually have a hypothesis that US citizens are actually less likely to even consider going abroad to work because of this filing requirement. There are many other reasons too (the US is a large market in its own right and has been for many years now), but it'd be interesting to compare and contrast the local population count of other developed countries with their expatriate population count.

A follow on hypothesis would be that a country having a larger percentage expatriate population compared to another all other things equal would have more global outlook e.g. the local population is more favorable towards immigration and free trade, and has a more accurate knowledge of the details behind world events.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#237

Post by fgjjgutjvnu »

styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

I think you could probably create offshore accounts even as a small company.

I was offered (and declined) to have part of my salary as an IT feelancer paid into an offshore account. All I would had to do was to say "yes", and I would have been in the game.

So I think it is probably not very difficult to do. Still risky and possibly illegal, though, so I'd personally advise against it.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#238

Post by gaius »

repomies691 wrote: post #219
loceng wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies evading taxes are responsible for increased hardship and suffering of a society as well, leeching off of the nations they exist in, and being able to outcompete the honest organizations and people in them. The damages are far greater than the tax avoided. "They are doing it too" isn't a valid excuse either.

So... Basically Apple is increasing the suffering by creating all those laptops and iphones? That is very difficult for me to grasp. Apple creates computers and phones which make peoples lives a lot better, and people are willing to pay for those. Why is the suffering increasing? I guess world would be a better place if apple would pay more taxes, but I'm pretty sure that world would be worse place without Apple, whe…

Apple cannot exist outside of the "ecosystem" of infrastructure and institutions maintained by the State, i.e. ordinary taxpayers. Good luck getting your iPhone without roads, or keeping it without a police force. Tax evading companies like Apple and Google justify it by claiming that they create value in a vacuum, so should keep all of it.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#239

Post by paulintrognon »

repomies691 wrote: post #219
loceng wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies evading taxes are responsible for increased hardship and suffering of a society as well, leeching off of the nations they exist in, and being able to outcompete the honest organizations and people in them. The damages are far greater than the tax avoided. "They are doing it too" isn't a valid excuse either.

So... Basically Apple is increasing the suffering by creating all those laptops and iphones? That is very difficult for me to grasp. Apple creates computers and phones which make peoples lives a lot better, and people are willing to pay for those. Why is the suffering increasing? I guess world would be a better place if apple would pay more taxes, but I'm pretty sure that world would be worse place without Apple, whe…

I think he is talking about the big impact large companies have on climate change (due to products and product parts transportation), for example. Also the fact that a lot of phone's components are made from minerals that fuel conflicts in third world countries. A small company like FairPhone, which tries to combat that, can't evade taxes like Apple do...

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#240

Post by tyingq »

loceng wrote: post #188
styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

These companies evading taxes are responsible for increased hardship and suffering of a society as well, leeching off of the nations they exist in, and being able to outcompete the honest organizations and people in them. The damages are far greater than the tax avoided. "They are doing it too" isn't a valid excuse either.

They aren't, for the most part, doing anything illegal though. They are using the existing laws to their best advantage.

The fix for this can't be trying to appeal to their morals. It would have to be something else that just limits the legal choices.

Edit: If you disagree, are you saying that shaming them into not doing this solely on some moral compass is the right fix? Does that scale?

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