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Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

projekte.sueddeutsche.de

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Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#281

Post by Clanan »

tyingq wrote: post #240
loceng wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies evading taxes are responsible for increased hardship and suffering of a society as well, leeching off of the nations they exist in, and being able to outcompete the honest organizations and people in them. The damages are far greater than the tax avoided. "They are doing it too" isn't a valid excuse either.

They aren't, for the most part, doing anything illegal though. They are using the existing laws to their best advantage. The fix for this can't be trying to appeal to their morals. It would have to be something else that just limits the legal choices. Edit: If you disagree, are you saying that shaming them into not doing this solely on some moral compass is the right fix? Does that scale?

The fix can certainly involve appealing to morals and human responsibility. A company is, after all, just a group of people. This should be a very strong tactic considering how liberal Silicon Valley is. The major players preach constantly about progressive ideals, yet fail to do more than the minimum when push comes to shove. My business partner and I purposefully pay normal taxes, avoiding accountants' crazy tax reduction schemes, because we think it's the right thing to do. We're a tiny speck compared to Apple, but the principle still applies. If the big players made it the norm, their investors would suck it up and deal with it.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#282

Post by Cakez0r »

jitbit wrote: post #66

While I do agree with the point that "govs should fix taxes, not corporations"... Still. It's a fact that (at least in the EU where I live) the majority of tax burden ends up on small companies - mom & pop shops, little bakeries etc. Who simply can't afford these global tax avoidance tricks (or can't use them because they're "local") Not that this is wrong or right, just a fact you can't argue with. I run a small sof…

I'd like to see some specific examples of tax avoidance tricks that Apple are using. There are a few mentions of how the "techniques aren't affordable for small business", but what are the techniques?

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#283

Post by secfirstmd »

belorn wrote: post #274
nickpp wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By default, big companies always get preferential treatment from governments. Open a mega-factory? They get tax cuts, cheap real estate, free utilities. Why? Those shiny new jobs look great on a politician's resume for the next election... What does the little business guy get? A letter of "don't forget to pay your taxes in full or else" It's time to accept the fact that governments are NOT a fair and impartial warde…

Not only do they get tax cuts and cheap real estate from governments, they also get direct money. When google decided to create a data center in Sweden, the Swedish government gifted them $20 million in "establishment support". Money sent from the tax payer directly to the bank account of Google. Reason? So that google would pick Sweden. The politicians argument is that Sweden grain prestige if google has their data…

Ireland has the same problem. Attracting large amount of data centres which don't really create all that many jobs. It also then shifts the costs because the electricity demand is so huge and it strains infrastructure.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#284

Post by Tepix »

wslh wrote: post #58

ELI5: why Wolfgang Krach needed the paradise papers to write this letter? Are paradise papers just an information leak that don't contribute to solving any problem? Except obviously when you can find plain corruption based on these papers.

Perhaps you missed these parts towards the end of this letter:

"But what unsettles me the most is the way in which Apple instructed a law firm to obtain an “official assurance of tax exemption” from the government of a country."

and

"And what understanding of democracy are we supposed to discern from the question you had this law firm ask? The one about whether the country had a “credible opposition party” or “movement that may replace the current government?” Were you trying to ensure that you would be able to retain tax-free status even after elections or a change in government?"

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#285

Post by ajeet_dhaliwal »

styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

Tax is really just skimming the surface of the advantages that result from being big and powerful. Yes it means that they get subsidized in a way by the public tax payers but their employees pay for it even worse. The inequality between executive pay and ordinary workers is more than ever over the last few decades and those workers are paying for it by living a two hour commute away in crappy property, saving pennies at the grocery store etc. all of these are sacrifices and subsidies for the big company, the tax savings are just half of it.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#286

Post by slimshady94 »

belorn wrote: post #274
nickpp wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By default, big companies always get preferential treatment from governments. Open a mega-factory? They get tax cuts, cheap real estate, free utilities. Why? Those shiny new jobs look great on a politician's resume for the next election... What does the little business guy get? A letter of "don't forget to pay your taxes in full or else" It's time to accept the fact that governments are NOT a fair and impartial warde…

Not only do they get tax cuts and cheap real estate from governments, they also get direct money. When google decided to create a data center in Sweden, the Swedish government gifted them $20 million in "establishment support". Money sent from the tax payer directly to the bank account of Google. Reason? So that google would pick Sweden. The politicians argument is that Sweden grain prestige if google has their data…

Wouldn't that increase the number of highly skilled individuals working in Sweden, who pay more tax/increase the jobs available? Which is a good thing?

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#287

Post by cjsuk »

blowski wrote: post #192
exDM69 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I'm afraid that it'll be a lot of violence ending tax evasion/optimization/avoidance too. The globalization game has winners and losers and it's starting to look like the losers outnumber the winners. I'd like to see something done to the global economy system with peaceful means before someone resorts to violence.

Arguably, some of the terrorism and other violent attacks are at least partially linked to globalisation. I doubt it's the winners driving trucks at people or shooting up churches.

The winners are proving the media impetus and the guns. It’s a big circle.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#288

Post by PedroBatista »

tyingq wrote: post #240
loceng wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies evading taxes are responsible for increased hardship and suffering of a society as well, leeching off of the nations they exist in, and being able to outcompete the honest organizations and people in them. The damages are far greater than the tax avoided. "They are doing it too" isn't a valid excuse either.

They aren't, for the most part, doing anything illegal though. They are using the existing laws to their best advantage. The fix for this can't be trying to appeal to their morals. It would have to be something else that just limits the legal choices. Edit: If you disagree, are you saying that shaming them into not doing this solely on some moral compass is the right fix? Does that scale?

Laws are written by people ( sadly by lawyers paid by these companies in this case ), just change the laws.

And by trying to do this we'll see creatures come out of the woodwork and previously virtue signaling personalities going strangely MIA.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#289

Post by mrmekon »

CamTin wrote: post #140
earthtolazlo wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are welcome to give up your American citizenship if that income tax becomes too burdensome for you.

There are actually things like the expatriation tax and "name and shame" provisions which discourage people from renouncing for tax purposes. Also (note that I am not an accountant or lawyer and this is not advice), most ordinary people won't see any problem with taxation while abroad beyond the actual inconvenience of filing a 1040 because the foreign earned income exclusion ( https://www.irs.gov/individuals/interna…

I guess it depends on your definition of "ordinary people", but if you're going abroad for long-term work in any "middle class" industry, you're eventually going to have extremely complicated taxes.

Retirement savings, stock options, real estate, and any sort of investment account makes your U.S. tax return go from "a 1040" to a towering mountain of special forms. A lot of them also lose you the right to e-file, for some reason. And many aren't supported by tax software, or are handled incorrectly.

A lot of "foreign" banks – i.e. your _local_ banks – won't even talk to you. They tell you to make your investments in the U.S. instead, so you get to pay international wire transfer fees and foreign currency exchange fees on every investment. And if you want to move it back, you get to pay them again.

You won't necessarily owe any tax in the U.S., but you sure pay for it in either filing time (10s to 100s of hours) or expat tax accountant fees.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#290

Post by zentiggr »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #68
jacquesm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The social responsibility part is what it is all about. If corporations use their legal and bargaining power to opt-out of the social contract then everybody will lose. There is such a thing as being too big and I firmly believe that most multinationals are no longer playing by the rules in the sense that they violate the spirit of those rules whereever they can by focusing solely on the letter of the rules. That's a…

What's to be done about it? We're the ants. That depressing truth has a way of manifesting. I'm not quite sure what to feel about it. Our attempts here are futile. We're not going to get any legislation passed. The fact is, companies can opt out of the social contract. They are big, and they're going to play by different rules. But I don't think that's strange -- that's just life. It happens in China and Russia. Why…

Well, occasionally a bunch of us decide to be fire ants instead, and bite back. Messy but seems to be inevitable given that "profit motive" has no shame to be called upon.
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