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Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

projekte.sueddeutsche.de

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Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#321

Post by Yizahi »

tyingq wrote: post #240
loceng wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies evading taxes are responsible for increased hardship and suffering of a society as well, leeching off of the nations they exist in, and being able to outcompete the honest organizations and people in them. The damages are far greater than the tax avoided. "They are doing it too" isn't a valid excuse either.

They aren't, for the most part, doing anything illegal though. They are using the existing laws to their best advantage. The fix for this can't be trying to appeal to their morals. It would have to be something else that just limits the legal choices. Edit: If you disagree, are you saying that shaming them into not doing this solely on some moral compass is the right fix? Does that scale?

They don't break a letter of the law (probably), but they break spirit of the law. Laws do not exist like a puzzle challenge to be beaten by clever lawyers with a reward being factual exemption from the law. They are usually intended for everyone.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#322

Post by belorn »

Cakez0r wrote: post #282
jitbit wrote: post #66

While I do agree with the point that "govs should fix taxes, not corporations"... Still. It's a fact that (at least in the EU where I live) the majority of tax burden ends up on small companies - mom & pop shops, little bakeries etc. Who simply can't afford these global tax avoidance tricks (or can't use them because they're "local") Not that this is wrong or right, just a fact you can't argue with. I run a small sof…

I'd like to see some specific examples of tax avoidance tricks that Apple are using. There are a few mentions of how the "techniques aren't affordable for small business", but what are the techniques?

Part of the scheme is to have a special deal with the government of Ireland (if you share the view of the European Commission) or to have a corporate structure located in Ireland but at the same time not be a tax resident in Ireland (view of the Ireland government). In 2010 Ireland also added a new law which partially forbids this, except for all existing companies such as apple.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#323

Post by spunker540 »

styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

So what you're saying is as a small business owner you'd like to evade taxes too? Seems like a great startup idea- "offshore accounts for everyone!"

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#324

Post by aembleton »

xapata wrote: post #271

Income tax is hard to collect. Sales tax is regressive. Solution: sales tax with lump-sum redistribution to make it progressive. Forget income tax.

But then you just buy from overseas. Or if you have many land-borders like Germany, you just drive across a border.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#325

Post by fredgrott »

here is what the average American does not know...read?

US collects $2.5 trillion in corp taxes...guess how much revenue is earned by US corps? $27Trillion...US corp effective tax rate tan is exactly 10%...contrasty that with China where the effective tax rate for corps counting corruption is at somewhat 45%...

Somewhere there is something wrong with US corp claiming they need lower taxes when they cannot increase the number of those hired..at leas that was the former social contract they were operating under when getting those lobbyist tax breaks in the first place.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#326

Post by Yizahi »

m12k wrote: post #269
tyingq wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't, for the most part, doing anything illegal though. They are using the existing laws to their best advantage. The fix for this can't be trying to appeal to their morals. It would have to be something else that just limits the legal choices. Edit: If you disagree, are you saying that shaming them into not doing this solely on some moral compass is the right fix? Does that scale?

Agreed, the only sane solution to this is a massive overhaul of international tax law. Shaming companies just isn't a scalable solution in any way. There's a massive opposition against this both from multinationals and tax haven countries though - this article is a good way to start making it obvious to normal citizens that this issue should be on the ballot.

But overhaul can't happen like "now". It need some initial impulse, an outrage bigger than average etc. Apple case may help this.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#327

Post by dontreact »

eru wrote: post #229
dontreact wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are fundamentally missing the nature of the loopholes being exploited. They have less to do with the complexity of the taxes in one country but rather the complexity that emerges naturally from different countries having different tax codes. How would a flat tax help avoid this scheme for example?: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/28/business/Doubl... The whole point is they skip the U.S. tax co…

There are taxes that are harder to skip than others. (At the risk of sounding like a broken record, land value taxation is basically impossible to avoid if you are using land.)

Would that really be effective? A lot of very large companies may just own very little land.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#328

Post by daxelrod »

mattmanser wrote: post #64
hiisukun wrote: post #30

I have nothing against companies minimising their taxes in legal ways. I understand the various incentives at play, and it makes quite some sense - all parties concerned appear to be acting predictably. However: I do take issue with companies minimising their tax in ways that are not legal, but appear legal unless discovered. I haven't the time or knowledge of various countries' tax laws to discover which is the case…

In the UK, for example, you have to register any tax avoidance scheme that you're using (as an individual at least). If the HMRC then look into that tax scheme and deem it against the rules, you pay the tax, but without penalty. As I understand it, if you don't register the scheme and you are found to be using the previously grey-area avoidance scheme, then you get done for tax evasion. That's how it's supposed to wo…

I'm super curious about how this works in practice. What's the bar something has to meet before being reported? Do decisions made about how to do accounting count? How about decisions when filling out tax forms? (US example: itemizing deductions vs taking the standard deduction).

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#329

Post by zmk_ »

josephjrobison wrote: post #312
styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

100% agree with the article. When an iPhone is sold in Germany, there is a VAT on that product that definitely goes to the government, right? So the main question is the corporate tax and not the per unit? Perhaps it would make sense to capture the true tax for in-country sales by adjusting the per unit tax?

It's the customers who pay the VAT, not Apple. That's why electronics bought in US where the sales taxes are generally much lower than VAT rates seem cheaper from the European perspective. A higher VAT also hits more the less privileged and effectively crowds them out of the market. For goods like these you can think of the VAT is 'the price to be able to buy' and corporate tax as 'the price to be able to sell'.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#330

Post by adamc »

tyingq wrote: post #240
loceng wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies evading taxes are responsible for increased hardship and suffering of a society as well, leeching off of the nations they exist in, and being able to outcompete the honest organizations and people in them. The damages are far greater than the tax avoided. "They are doing it too" isn't a valid excuse either.

They aren't, for the most part, doing anything illegal though. They are using the existing laws to their best advantage. The fix for this can't be trying to appeal to their morals. It would have to be something else that just limits the legal choices. Edit: If you disagree, are you saying that shaming them into not doing this solely on some moral compass is the right fix? Does that scale?

Corporations aren't people (dumb legal decisions to the contrary). "Shaming" doesn't really work for corporations. The solution would have to be tighter tax codes.

But our congress is highly dependent on campaign contributions, and corporations (and the individuals they make rich) can contribute. The result is that the tax code tends to be skewed in various ways.

If we don't solve campaign financing, other problems are probably hopeless.

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