Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm • Hacker News Board

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#161

Post by grondilu » Sun, Nov 05, 2017, 9:12 PM UTC

dagss wrote: post #139

grondilu wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my humble opinion, the job of the government is absolutely not to give money to the poorest people, not even to maintain a "basic level of livelyhood". I'm also fairly certain this has nothing to do with the concept of justice.

"Justice" means upholding laws? Most of the world has signed conventions that makes basic livelihood a right -- and puts it on the state to ensure this. Perhaps you don't agree with these laws and conventions. But please consider that the very concept of "ownership" and "property" is also something that is only upheld by laws. Also on a pragmatic level, why should those without property acknowledge and support a stat…

> to social unrest / revolutions that causes problems for rich people as well.

Some problems for sure, but it's probably manageable. Poverty is not and should never be an excuse for crime. Rich people can build as many prisons as necessary.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#162

Post by SubiculumCode » Sun, Nov 05, 2017, 9:12 PM UTC

erikpukinskis wrote: post #127

mrleiter wrote: post #33

It's the wrong angle. One should not look at corporations as the moral saviours. As Supreme Court Judge Learned Hand once said: "Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing 851*851 sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are enforced exactions, n…

> It's the wrong angle. One should not look at corporations as the moral saviours. It's too late. You're arguing a return to the past, "money is just money, corporations are just doing what's in their self interest." That's still the dominant ideology, but it's on the wane. It will be replaced when cash is replaced. Cash will be replaced by bonds. I won't pay McDonalds in cash for a burger, I will pay them in a bond…

Interesting idea. You have resources talking about this in more detail?

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#163

Post by lordnacho » Sun, Nov 05, 2017, 9:12 PM UTC

killjoywashere wrote: post #45

hacker_9 wrote: post #39

So how bad is this exactly? I'm all for equality, but the world is built on the game known as capitalism, and this stuff exists because people optimise their playing strategy. I know the starting conditions can be unfair, but we kinda need people at the top to make the whole thing work. If the world runs on money, then there will always be a poorer place that wants to attract the rich, and so havens are born. Let's n…

The havens are not the issue. The fact that YCombinator start-ups are funded by Russian oligarchs (via Milner) is an issue. The fact the the US Commerce Secretary is in business with Putin's family is an issue. The fact that Facebook and Twitter are funded by Russian oligarchs (again, via Milner) is an issue. There are a lot of issues here. These oligarchs have no problem killing people wholesale. You want to give th…

You may not like the guy, for the same political reasons as many people, but shouldn't he be allowed to buy and sell property just like everybody else?

The only issue I find distasteful is how the oligarchs got their money. I wouldn't want to personally make them richer, but isn't it of a nature where you can't point fingers if other people do so? Who am I to stop some startup from taking investment from them?

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#164

Post by mempko » Sun, Nov 05, 2017, 9:13 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #64

Let's not act like tax avoidance is some Big Deal. Taxation is theft to begin with, so there's no reason to begrudge people who are protecting their assets. The real question we should be applying our intellects to is "how do we fund the things that are currently funded by taxation, which are actually necessary / desirable, without using violence or the threat of violence?"

The communists figured this out long ago. You do realize you have to abandon the idea of markets, money, and capitalism if you want to pursue this further.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#165

Post by mindcrime » Sun, Nov 05, 2017, 9:13 PM UTC

lovich wrote: post #152

mindcrime wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just answer the question: "how do we fund the things that are currently funded by taxation, which are actually necessary / desirable, without using violence or the threat of violence?" C'mon, we're hackers... we can do better than relying on violence and aggression. What happened to the idea that we could apply our intellects, reason, logic, and rational thinking, and improve on the old way of doing things? I mean, i…

What does being hackers have to do with it? Every tech company and startup is already relying on the threat of violence to get what they want. They all use IP law which is enforced by the government and that enforcement leads back to violence.

What does being hackers have to do with it?

Seriously? It's mind-boggling to me that somebody would ask that with a straight face, ya know? I mean, the essence of what it means to be a hacker is to examine things, break them apart, understand how they work, and improve them. And as a general rule, most hackers have traditionally preferred to use their minds to achieve various ends, rather than relying on violence.

Put those two things together and it's pretty easy to see why one would think that hackers would be motivated to find ways to improve our systems to governance such that they aren't rooted in the use of violence.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#166

Post by TeMPOraL » Sun, Nov 05, 2017, 9:13 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #115

danharaj wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A government insulated from outside influence no longer governs.

Just because politicians stop creating opportunities for mega-corps and wealthy individuals to gain unfair advantages in the economy doesn't stop them from writing all legislation. Corporations/wealthy individuals can't exploit power which doesn't exist. Adding more complexity and protections to prevent this has repeatedly failed and usually just creates more loopholes, the solution is simplification of new laws and…

Tangential: interesting how, through using a weird vertical scale, the image you linked to weakens its own point. I suppose if the Y axis was consistent, it wouldn't look as if tax law expansion slowed down significantly in recent times.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#167

Post by grondilu » Sun, Nov 05, 2017, 9:13 PM UTC

aylmao wrote: post #126

grondilu wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> politicians get off for things magnitudes more illegal than what they've done, That indeed demands justice. > I think isn't a bad thing as long as the poorest among us have some basic level of livelihood. The problem is that in the US, that isn't true, and so, people clamor for justice. That is not a demand for justice, but charity. Words have a meaning, please don't misuse them.

It's always disappointing to find people on the web who don't believe in basic human rights. Don't we all have the right to a basic level of livelihood? Why should the family I was born to determine wether I have clean water to drink or not, for example?

> Why should the family I was born to determine wether I have clean water to drink or not, for example?

Because of this thing called reality.

If the circumstances of your birth are unfortunate, that's sad, but it does not have to be other people's problem.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#168

Post by erentz » Sun, Nov 05, 2017, 9:13 PM UTC

ianai wrote: post #112

noobermin wrote: post #79

Since there are no top level comments putting this out for probably obvious reasons, here is a supportive comment for the article. This is what people feel in their guts when they drive out on tattered roads and avoid going to the hospital even though they are sick, when they don't have a real increase in wages but are working longer hours. They have the sense that something isn't right, that there are two sets of ru…

They clamor for justice behind Donald Trump though. He’s used the mass’ frustrations to his own end, and they loved it enough to vote him into power.

To be fair a lot were clamoring behind Bernie Sanders. But Hillary bent the DNC to do some fairly corrupt shit and so you got Trump. The democrats are still trapped by this neolib-technocrat-west-wing fantasy-land where the best person at debating wins regardless of the fact they don’t actually stand for anything.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#169

Post by jordanb » Sun, Nov 05, 2017, 9:13 PM UTC

nodesocket wrote: post #19

cletus wrote: post #6

I can't help but think of the GOP's tax "reform" that is a hot topic in the US right now. I say "reform" because there's absolutely no reform about it. It's a tax cut for billionaires bought and paid for by the GOP donor class. The paranoia of religious conservatives certainly elected the GOP but make no mistake: they don't give a shit about anyone but the donor class, often personified by the Koch brothers. The carr…

> It's a tax cut for billionaires bought and paid for by the GOP donor class I am a small business owner setup as a LLC single member company and the new cap will be a positive for me. It will reduce my tax burden allowing me to buy more software from companies, hire, expand, increase advertising spending, etc. I am a very real case, and there are lots of other small business owners like me who are certainly not bill…

Interestingly this was the premise behind Brownback's tax plan in Kansas:

Small businesses were being held back by their tax burden. They wanted to invest more capital in their businesses, to scale up and hire more people. They had untapped opportunities in the market that they could not pursue because they didn't have the money that they would have if their taxes were lower.

Here's how that worked out: http://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/336684-kansas-legisl...

  Ratings agencies downgraded Kansas's bonds, forcing the 
  state to pay more in borrowing costs. Funding for state 
  school programs fell, and the Kansas Supreme Court ruled 
  the state government was not adequately funding schools. 
  Earlier this year, legislators grappled with a budget 
  deficit of almost $900 million.

  In 2016, voters kicked out a handful of anti-tax 
  Republicans, in favor of challengers who backed higher 
  taxes, despite Brownback's opposition.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#170

Post by patall » Sun, Nov 05, 2017, 9:14 PM UTC

tomkat0789 wrote: post #81

These leaks are juicy and all, but have our oligarchs had to change anything as a result of them? What were the big effects of the Panama Papers?

I do not quite understand what you want to tell us with such a comment? So what? If injustice is done, but we were not able fix it the last time it was brought up, we should just let it be?

(And honestly, I am also surprised that something like this shows up on hackernews. (In 2007:) Why does Apple come up with a touch screen mobile phone, those did not make profit the last time they come up. (Early 2010s:) Why does Musk invent an electric car, those things disappeared after the 20s for a reason.)