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Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

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Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#111

Post by ttul »

jacobolus wrote: post #98
noobermin wrote: post #79

Since there are no top level comments putting this out for probably obvious reasons, here is a supportive comment for the article. This is what people feel in their guts when they drive out on tattered roads and avoid going to the hospital even though they are sick, when they don't have a real increase in wages but are working longer hours. They have the sense that something isn't right, that there are two sets of ru…

SG = Singapore?

Southern Georgia? Slovenian Georgetown? Sicilian Goosefeathers? Saucy Gobstoppers?

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#112

Post by ianai »

noobermin wrote: post #79

Since there are no top level comments putting this out for probably obvious reasons, here is a supportive comment for the article. This is what people feel in their guts when they drive out on tattered roads and avoid going to the hospital even though they are sick, when they don't have a real increase in wages but are working longer hours. They have the sense that something isn't right, that there are two sets of ru…

They clamor for justice behind Donald Trump though. He’s used the mass’ frustrations to his own end, and they loved it enough to vote him into power.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#113

Post by [deleted] »

nodesocket wrote: post #19
cletus wrote: post #6

I can't help but think of the GOP's tax "reform" that is a hot topic in the US right now. I say "reform" because there's absolutely no reform about it. It's a tax cut for billionaires bought and paid for by the GOP donor class. The paranoia of religious conservatives certainly elected the GOP but make no mistake: they don't give a shit about anyone but the donor class, often personified by the Koch brothers. The carr…

> It's a tax cut for billionaires bought and paid for by the GOP donor class I am a small business owner setup as a LLC single member company and the new cap will be a positive for me. It will reduce my tax burden allowing me to buy more software from companies, hire, expand, increase advertising spending, etc. I am a very real case, and there are lots of other small business owners like me who are certainly not bill…

[deleted]

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#114

Post by alaaibrahim »

Clubber wrote: post #82
alaaibrahim wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you explain why is that the case, I've heard that multiple times, but for me the math doesn't work out. If I earn an amount of (x+y), I would get taxed on (x+y), but if I donate x money, I would get taxed on y, but I've already paid x in donations, so unless there is something fishy going on with the x donations part, it would make sense for someone to not donate, as they are already being taxed on y, and the t…

A lot of times, the donations are something they would already be doing. For example, instead of throwing away a couch, which someone was planning on doing, they could donate it to Good Will and get a write-off for the amount the couch was worth (typically they get to fill that in). This also works for much larger things like buildings or land. So if someone owned a parcel of land that they paid $100K for, used for a…

Thanks, that's a nice explanation.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#115

Post by dmix »

danharaj wrote: post #96
joelrunyon wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the corporation is still the symptom. What we should be doing is insulating the government from outside influence.

A government insulated from outside influence no longer governs.

Just because politicians stop creating opportunities for mega-corps and wealthy individuals to gain unfair advantages in the economy doesn't stop them from writing all legislation.

Corporations/wealthy individuals can't exploit power which doesn't exist. Adding more complexity and protections to prevent this has repeatedly failed and usually just creates more loopholes, the solution is simplification of new laws and reduction of old poorly written laws (adding more complexity has historically been a one way street in modern government: https://i.imgur.com/pe64eNd.png).

And if lawmakers can't write regulations, legislation, or tax policy which doesn't give particular people/organizations an advantage, by side effect or directly, then they shouldn't write them at all - or just accept that there will be people who sidestep it.

But it's ridiculous to say this will prevent politicians from governing. Yes, it will limit the types of legislation and force them to consider the full implications, but that's a good thing.

This is why people support things like basic income and flat tax. Removing complexity, bureaucracy, and direct government involvement in picking winners/losers. Everyone knows the devil is in the details when you're trying to circumvent a system or take advantage of it.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#116

Post by grondilu »

noobermin wrote: post #79

Since there are no top level comments putting this out for probably obvious reasons, here is a supportive comment for the article. This is what people feel in their guts when they drive out on tattered roads and avoid going to the hospital even though they are sick, when they don't have a real increase in wages but are working longer hours. They have the sense that something isn't right, that there are two sets of ru…

> politicians get off for things magnitudes more illegal than what they've done,

That indeed demands justice.

> I think isn't a bad thing as long as the poorest among us have some basic level of livelihood. The problem is that in the US, that isn't true, and so, people clamor for justice.

That is not a demand for justice, but charity.

Words have a meaning, please don't misuse them.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#117

Post by wfo »

mrleiter wrote: post #33

It's the wrong angle. One should not look at corporations as the moral saviours. As Supreme Court Judge Learned Hand once said: "Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing 851*851 sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are enforced exactions, n…

If we decide corporations have no obligation to be moral or decent, they naturally will behave as we expect. If we expect and demand (and punish the absence of) more, we can get more. Corporations are made up of people, and people are fully capable of not committing rampant constant fraud.

Spending thousands of dollars to avoid their moral tax obligations instead of paying is in my view fraud and corruption; the fact that it is possible with an army of accountants and massive resources dedicated to tiny loopholes is really of no importance when we weight the ethical or moral judgements of these actions: if you spend millions on lawyers to devise a clever loophole that lets you murder someone legally you are still a murderer. There's a (bad) argument to be made that for consistency's sake we cannot prosecute you under the current laws, but there's no argument that you're not a monster.

Refusing to pay taxes is stealing from the poor (and the general public) who rely on government services; you are destroying the roads, parks, annihilating schools and universities, preventing people from getting healthcare they need to survive, stealing from children, the homeless, the elderly and the disabled, helping criminals by defunding the police and helping burn people and property by defunding fire departments.

If your job is to find tax loopholes for corporations, you are committing fraud even if our current legal system is written by people who think fraud is okay so long as it's a CPA on behalf of a massive corporation doing it. The fact that some judges have decided this is okay does not mean that it actually is.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#118

Post by Clubber »

wallace_f wrote: post #100
danharaj wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an accident.

Putin's utility function maximization calculus is clearly benefited from undermining his own people, and there is a lot of evidence to support that. The US plutocracy is no different. Also a lot of evidence: the actions of the NSA, CIA, War on Drugs, police militarizarion, military-industrial-congressional-complex... All cannot be explained otherwise. I think in the US, they're just a lot more clever at it. However c…

>A lot of the racial tension is probably not by accident.

It absolutely is not by accident, not most of it. There are a lot of interests that make money keeping racial tensions high. News outlets are one.

Bacon's Rebellion is a very significant historical event that happened in 1676 that still gets taught and still has an effect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacon%27s_Rebellion

The alliance between indentured servants and Africans (most enslaved until death or freed), united by their bond-servitude, disturbed the ruling class, who responded by hardening the racial caste of slavery in an attempt to divide the two races from subsequent united uprisings with the passage of the Virginia Slave Codes of 1705.

Indentured servants both black and white joined the frontier rebellion. Seeing them united in a cause alarmed the ruling class, historians believe the rebellion hastened the hardening of racial lines associated with slavery, as a way for planters and the colony to control some of the poor.

The reason the ruling class is allowed to rule (today and through history) was because the underclass was divided. Kings would keep nobility fighting with each other and not the kings.

The US racial divide is an implementation of the same thing. If poor blacks and poor whites constantly bicker (and worse) at each other, they certainly aren't bickering with the powers that be. Divide and conquer. One of the oldest strategies in the book. Hell, look at what the Hippies were able to do as far as civil unrest with the government in the late 60s. Hippies weren't known to be racist, infact the opposite. That certainly wouldn't do. Enter the drug war.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#119

Post by natural219 »

haaen wrote: post #103

Comment from economist Tyler Cowen when the same group of journalists released the Panama papers: Was it wrong to hack and leak the Panama Papers? Let’s say a group of criminal defense lawyers kept a database of their confidential conversations with their clients. That would include clients charged with murder, robbery, DUI, drug abuse, and so on. In turn, a hacker would break into that database and post the informat…

Excuse me while a shed a single tear for the world's uberrich.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#120

Post by wolfgke »

cisanti wrote: post #41
mrleiter wrote: post #33

It's the wrong angle. One should not look at corporations as the moral saviours. As Supreme Court Judge Learned Hand once said: "Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing 851*851 sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are enforced exactions, n…

But corporations do like to paint themselves as moral and fighting for you! Another thing is why people believe in it... All in all, there are many things that are not illegal to do, but definitely immoral. Such tax schemes sure are immoral in my eyes, I'm a hard-core capitalist, but no way your average Joe stands a chance at "optimizing" taxes. People need to call out these companies more, but it's easy to deceive t…

> Such tax schemes sure are immoral in my eyes, I'm a hard-core capitalist, but no way your average Joe stands a chance at "optimizing" taxes.

This rather shows that the tax system is far too complicated, so that only really rich people can "afford" (i.e. pay the necessary apparatus of lawyers, tax experts etc.) to use the loopholes. Rather tell your government to radically simplify it with the long-term goal that one even can formulate "correctness proofs" that some kinds of loopholes simply do not exist etc.

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