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Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

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Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#61

Post by ringaroundthetx »

pyrale wrote: post #48
mrleiter wrote: post #33

It's the wrong angle. One should not look at corporations as the moral saviours. As Supreme Court Judge Learned Hand once said: "Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing 851*851 sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are enforced exactions, n…

> It's the wrong angle. One should not look at corporations as the moral saviours. [...] Rather, it is the governments of the world we should be going at if we want this behaviour to change. Let us pretend that corporations have no influence over laws and governments, and merely play a game they had no hand in designing.

What exactly did land of opportunity mean to you?

Some people are playing by a more effective set of rules. You were sold a moral paradigm to stuff government coffers and bought it without even questioning how public services could be funded. Others see the moral relativity and aspire to adapt and do.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#62

Post by killjoywashere »

charlesdm wrote: post #49
killjoywashere wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The havens are not the issue. The fact that YCombinator start-ups are funded by Russian oligarchs (via Milner) is an issue. The fact the the US Commerce Secretary is in business with Putin's family is an issue. The fact that Facebook and Twitter are funded by Russian oligarchs (again, via Milner) is an issue. There are a lot of issues here. These oligarchs have no problem killing people wholesale. You want to give th…

I'm pretty sure plenty of people wouldn't care. If someone offers you $100m for your business today (Ford), and a Russian company offered you $300m (Gazprom) -- guess which one most would sell to? Facebook might not like it now, but at the time, you could be quite certain they didn't care.

Next question: do you think the Saudis got early access to the Paradise Papers too? Any chance the Saudi arrests are linked to all this?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/04/world/middleeast/saudi-ar...

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#63

Post by confounded »

hacker_9 wrote: post #39

So how bad is this exactly? I'm all for equality, but the world is built on the game known as capitalism, and this stuff exists because people optimise their playing strategy. I know the starting conditions can be unfair, but we kinda need people at the top to make the whole thing work. If the world runs on money, then there will always be a poorer place that wants to attract the rich, and so havens are born. Let's n…

> this stuff exists because people optimise their playing strategy.

There any a great many reasons why it’s important to know what the latest strategies are. Few of the people concerned here are passive capitalists looking for ROI.

Even if they were, politics is ultimately a contest over resources. Information is power.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#64

Post by mindcrime »

Let's not act like tax avoidance is some Big Deal. Taxation is theft to begin with, so there's no reason to begrudge people who are protecting their assets.

The real question we should be applying our intellects to is "how do we fund the things that are currently funded by taxation, which are actually necessary / desirable, without using violence or the threat of violence?"

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#65

Post by rsynnott »

nodesocket wrote: post #19
cletus wrote: post #6

I can't help but think of the GOP's tax "reform" that is a hot topic in the US right now. I say "reform" because there's absolutely no reform about it. It's a tax cut for billionaires bought and paid for by the GOP donor class. The paranoia of religious conservatives certainly elected the GOP but make no mistake: they don't give a shit about anyone but the donor class, often personified by the Koch brothers. The carr…

> It's a tax cut for billionaires bought and paid for by the GOP donor class I am a small business owner setup as a LLC single member company and the new cap will be a positive for me. It will reduce my tax burden allowing me to buy more software from companies, hire, expand, increase advertising spending, etc. I am a very real case, and there are lots of other small business owners like me who are certainly not bill…

Money that you spend on buying software, hiring etc isn’t generally taxable anyway. A business is generally taxed on income, not revenue.

You also have to ask, where is the money coming from? In this case, it would appear to be through radically increasing the deficit. There will ultimately be consequences to that (for instance, in a few years, as the US’s credit rating comes under pressure, increased repayments may have to be met with increases on income tax, which you will pay).

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#66

Post by ringaroundthetx »

killjoywashere wrote: post #45
hacker_9 wrote: post #39

So how bad is this exactly? I'm all for equality, but the world is built on the game known as capitalism, and this stuff exists because people optimise their playing strategy. I know the starting conditions can be unfair, but we kinda need people at the top to make the whole thing work. If the world runs on money, then there will always be a poorer place that wants to attract the rich, and so havens are born. Let's n…

The havens are not the issue. The fact that YCombinator start-ups are funded by Russian oligarchs (via Milner) is an issue. The fact the the US Commerce Secretary is in business with Putin's family is an issue. The fact that Facebook and Twitter are funded by Russian oligarchs (again, via Milner) is an issue. There are a lot of issues here. These oligarchs have no problem killing people wholesale. You want to give th…

Human rights abuses have NEVER been a red line for US cooperation with a foreign government.

Ask yourself who benefits from perpetuating this unique goal post for Russia to maintain McCarthy era paranoia?

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#67

Post by pjc50 »

charlesdm wrote: post #49
killjoywashere wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The havens are not the issue. The fact that YCombinator start-ups are funded by Russian oligarchs (via Milner) is an issue. The fact the the US Commerce Secretary is in business with Putin's family is an issue. The fact that Facebook and Twitter are funded by Russian oligarchs (again, via Milner) is an issue. There are a lot of issues here. These oligarchs have no problem killing people wholesale. You want to give th…

I'm pretty sure plenty of people wouldn't care. If someone offers you $100m for your business today (Ford), and a Russian company offered you $300m (Gazprom) -- guess which one most would sell to? Facebook might not like it now, but at the time, you could be quite certain they didn't care.

I'm not up on the Magnitsky act, but does it make a difference if it's illegal for you to take the $300m from Gazprom?

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#68

Post by anigbrowl »

ringaroundthetx wrote: post #61
pyrale wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the wrong angle. One should not look at corporations as the moral saviours. [...] Rather, it is the governments of the world we should be going at if we want this behaviour to change. Let us pretend that corporations have no influence over laws and governments, and merely play a game they had no hand in designing.

What exactly did land of opportunity mean to you? Some people are playing by a more effective set of rules. You were sold a moral paradigm to stuff government coffers and bought it without even questioning how public services could be funded. Others see the moral relativity and aspire to adapt and do.

Oh, but you weren't sold a moral paradigm to stuff corporate coffers? Your argument rests on the premise that you're a free thinker and everyone else is brainwashed. This conceit seems to be very common among libertarians.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#69

Post by clamprecht »

mrleiter wrote: post #33

It's the wrong angle. One should not look at corporations as the moral saviours. As Supreme Court Judge Learned Hand once said: "Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing 851*851 sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are enforced exactions, n…

Aka "don't hate the player, hate the game"

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#70

Post by killjoywashere »

cletus wrote: post #6

I can't help but think of the GOP's tax "reform" that is a hot topic in the US right now. I say "reform" because there's absolutely no reform about it. It's a tax cut for billionaires bought and paid for by the GOP donor class. The paranoia of religious conservatives certainly elected the GOP but make no mistake: they don't give a shit about anyone but the donor class, often personified by the Koch brothers. The carr…

Wait, are you suggesting that Trump is conning the good citizens of Oklahoma, Texas, Alabama, and other red states into subsidizing Russian oligarchs? Say it ain't so...
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