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Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

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Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#41

Post by cisanti »

mrleiter wrote: post #33

It's the wrong angle. One should not look at corporations as the moral saviours. As Supreme Court Judge Learned Hand once said: "Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing 851*851 sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are enforced exactions, n…

But corporations do like to paint themselves as moral and fighting for you! Another thing is why people believe in it...

All in all, there are many things that are not illegal to do, but definitely immoral. Such tax schemes sure are immoral in my eyes, I'm a hard-core capitalist, but no way your average Joe stands a chance at "optimizing" taxes. People need to call out these companies more, but it's easy to deceive the people. Apple felt the clock has shifted and its beneficial to them and say supportive things of LGBT issues and people truly believe they are fighting for the average man.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#43

Post by [deleted] »

hacker_9 wrote: post #39

So how bad is this exactly? I'm all for equality, but the world is built on the game known as capitalism, and this stuff exists because people optimise their playing strategy. I know the starting conditions can be unfair, but we kinda need people at the top to make the whole thing work. If the world runs on money, then there will always be a poorer place that wants to attract the rich, and so havens are born. Let's n…

[deleted]

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#44

Post by charlesdm »

UweSchmidt wrote: post #35
charlesdm wrote: post #24

Honestly, nothing new. Does anyone still care? Action is being taken on an international level to combat avoidance, but it takes time. These types of offshore vehicles offer privacy and serve various specific purposes (e.g. tax transparent international investing). Yes, they can be used for illegal purposes (sometimes), but frankly that seems like the minority to me. What worries me a bit though, is the fact that hea…

I knew I'd see a comment such like this when I clicked on the comments: "Nothing to see here, move along..."

It's fun to go through this to see how people are structuring their business, but most people respect the tax laws of the country they're living in. And if they're not breaking any laws, this honestly shouldn't be publicized. In the same way I don't think your personal income should be made public for the whole world to see.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#45

Post by killjoywashere »

hacker_9 wrote: post #39

So how bad is this exactly? I'm all for equality, but the world is built on the game known as capitalism, and this stuff exists because people optimise their playing strategy. I know the starting conditions can be unfair, but we kinda need people at the top to make the whole thing work. If the world runs on money, then there will always be a poorer place that wants to attract the rich, and so havens are born. Let's n…

The havens are not the issue. The fact that YCombinator start-ups are funded by Russian oligarchs (via Milner) is an issue. The fact the the US Commerce Secretary is in business with Putin's family is an issue. The fact that Facebook and Twitter are funded by Russian oligarchs (again, via Milner) is an issue. There are a lot of issues here.

These oligarchs have no problem killing people wholesale. You want to give them a positive ROI on their investment? WTF?

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#46

Post by rothbardrand »

cisanti wrote: post #41
mrleiter wrote: post #33

It's the wrong angle. One should not look at corporations as the moral saviours. As Supreme Court Judge Learned Hand once said: "Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing 851*851 sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are enforced exactions, n…

But corporations do like to paint themselves as moral and fighting for you! Another thing is why people believe in it... All in all, there are many things that are not illegal to do, but definitely immoral. Such tax schemes sure are immoral in my eyes, I'm a hard-core capitalist, but no way your average Joe stands a chance at "optimizing" taxes. People need to call out these companies more, but it's easy to deceive t…

You invoked morality. The moral calculus is pretty clear to me: I’ll take the gay loving advancer of technology over governments stealing money to use it to blow up people any day.

Apple has the moral high ground, and that ground is higher the less taxes they pay.

Remember military spending is far more than roads.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#47

Post by anigbrowl »

hacker_9 wrote: post #39

So how bad is this exactly? I'm all for equality, but the world is built on the game known as capitalism, and this stuff exists because people optimise their playing strategy. I know the starting conditions can be unfair, but we kinda need people at the top to make the whole thing work. If the world runs on money, then there will always be a poorer place that wants to attract the rich, and so havens are born. Let's n…

the world is built on the game known as capitalism

Before that it was built on the game known as feudalism, and that seemed equally inevitable to most of the participants. You might find it interesting to look at the percentage of GDP in different countries from the financial services sector, and how that has changed over time. Also look into the work of the late Mark Fisher who does a good job contemplating alternative paradigms in an accessible and non-dogmatic way.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#48

Post by pyrale »

mrleiter wrote: post #33

It's the wrong angle. One should not look at corporations as the moral saviours. As Supreme Court Judge Learned Hand once said: "Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing 851*851 sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are enforced exactions, n…

> It's the wrong angle. One should not look at corporations as the moral saviours. [...] Rather, it is the governments of the world we should be going at if we want this behaviour to change.

Let us pretend that corporations have no influence over laws and governments, and merely play a game they had no hand in designing.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#49

Post by charlesdm »

killjoywashere wrote: post #45
hacker_9 wrote: post #39

So how bad is this exactly? I'm all for equality, but the world is built on the game known as capitalism, and this stuff exists because people optimise their playing strategy. I know the starting conditions can be unfair, but we kinda need people at the top to make the whole thing work. If the world runs on money, then there will always be a poorer place that wants to attract the rich, and so havens are born. Let's n…

The havens are not the issue. The fact that YCombinator start-ups are funded by Russian oligarchs (via Milner) is an issue. The fact the the US Commerce Secretary is in business with Putin's family is an issue. The fact that Facebook and Twitter are funded by Russian oligarchs (again, via Milner) is an issue. There are a lot of issues here. These oligarchs have no problem killing people wholesale. You want to give th…

I'm pretty sure plenty of people wouldn't care. If someone offers you $100m for your business today (Ford), and a Russian company offered you $300m (Gazprom) -- guess which one most would sell to?

Facebook might not like it now, but at the time, you could be quite certain they didn't care.

Re: Paradise Papers: New leak from offshore finance firm

#50

Post by mtgx »

mrleiter wrote: post #33

It's the wrong angle. One should not look at corporations as the moral saviours. As Supreme Court Judge Learned Hand once said: "Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing 851*851 sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are enforced exactions, n…

Which is more likely to "go after" the queen of England? The UK government, or the UK people?

I would say the latter, which is why it's the correct angle in this case.

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