Freelancer.com has ruined my life • Hacker News Board

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#161

Post by BjoernKW » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 3:40 PM UTC

HarryHirsch wrote: post #148

wpietri wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anybody have a theory as to why victim-blaming is such a popular response on HN? I don't see it nearly as much elsewhere.

It's the Libertarian pro-market bend here, it's what you get when you replace the legal framework of the state with a market system. In a regular Western democracy if someone cheats you you can seek redress through the court system. You can't do that in the trust market, if you didn't do diligence on your opponent it's your own fault. Kind of like in the Mafia, a war of all against all. Me against my brothers. Me and…

If the other party did something illegal or broke a contract you most certainly have legal recourse.

The problem with intermediaries like these is that there's an inherent power differential. So, while technically they might not be doing anything illegal they're able to squeeze you. The best way to deal with this - if possible - is to not get yourself into a situation like that in the first place.

Another way is to make new laws (or create common law precedents depending on the legal system) that address issues that arise with these models. After all, that's how labour laws came into being as there was a huge power differential between early industrial workers, specifically day labourers, and their employers.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#162

Post by XCSme » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 3:41 PM UTC

wolco wrote: post #144

XCSme wrote: post #92

I have personally used Freelancer.com (I am a web dev) for about 10 projects and everything went great, never had issues with the clients or payment. I also managed to find several good business partners/long term clients through Freelancer. I understand that this is not always the case, but I guess saying that the platform is completely bad because one in 100k users has a issue is just an overstatement, we might not…

This guy was in the top 5% did many more projects than yourself for 5 years. In the end all it takes is one help desk person to bring it all down. The next project may be your last you never know.

My guess is that the guy is not completely honest that the "help desk" person blocked his account. Anyway, freelancer.com is just a platform, if you are a freelancer you shouldn't rely only on one specific platform. A freelancer by definition should not be dependent on anyone else, you are in charge.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#163

Post by jimnotgym » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 3:43 PM UTC

crevizniq wrote: post #124

jimnotgym wrote: post #104

It makes me wonder if there is space in the market for a freelancing website that has minimum rates and does some more vetting, or referencing as we might call it in the real world. Ditch the credit card nonsense and make people pay by bank transfer, like real agencies would. It sounds like a product I would use. I have a need for Freelancer style services, but I don't need to have to vet people and read reviews, tha…

There is one: https://www.toptal.com

Does anyone have experience of working with them as a contractor?

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#164

Post by blfr » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 3:45 PM UTC

opmac wrote: post #109

BjoernKW wrote: post #90

Some people, freelancers as well as clients and those middlemen that are unfortunately very common in this market, seem to fundamentally misunderstand what a freelancer or contractor is. Freelancing is not some alternative form of employment that allows you to conveniently dispense with social security costs. A freelancer is a self-employed service provider. Like with any other kind of self-employment you’re responsi…

Classic victim blaming. What you say is mostly true, but it completely glosses over the potential issues raised by this post. So what if the author made a mistake about using Freelancer.com? That doesn't change the fact that what Freelancer is _supposedly_ doing here is incredibly shady and they should be held accountable. The only real issue I have with the author's post is there are a lot of details missing. What d…

The primary way HN audience can hold Freelancer accountable is not use their services. This is what a review is for -- so that other people can learn from OP's experience.

If OP wanted instead help with their particular situation, they would have to include the details you note are missing.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#165

Post by watwut » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 3:46 PM UTC

Casseres wrote: post #132

wpietri wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anybody have a theory as to why victim-blaming is such a popular response on HN? I don't see it nearly as much elsewhere.

I think that smarter people are more likely to victim-blame because it's harder to imagine themselves falling victim to whatever situation. For most problems, they seem like they could have been easily prevented by either being more knowledgeable about the situation or thinking things through beforehand. After reading a lot of the discussions here, and considering that most of us are here for the pursuit of knowledge…

I don't think inability to imagine bad luck or own mistake is proof of intelligence. It is proof of ego or arrogance or an attempt to mask I security.

Smart people made mistakes in the past, smart people can imagine situations where they become victims (whether by own fault or not). Some smart people do have inability to imagine themselves in other people's shoose - but dumb people are often similarly disabled

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#166

Post by blfr » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 3:49 PM UTC

jimnotgym wrote: post #156

BjoernKW wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all a contractor focuses on is her day job how is that different from traditional employment? Being able to focus on your day job while leaving everything else to another party is what employment is for. I'm all in favour of outsourcing the work that you're not good at or that's not part of your core business. However, in my opinion as a software development freelancer marketing and sales is a key part of your bus…

There are two things confused here. Lots of people go contracting in the UK because 1) You can earn more. A company will pay more as it can ditch the person at the end of the contract, when it is not a core competency of the firm. 2) There are tax benefits 3) When you contract is over you get a change of scenery Many of those always contract through an agency What you are describing is more like someone trying to sta…

'BjoernKW is describing freelancing. You're describing using it largely as a way to avoid employment laws.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#167

Post by BjoernKW » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 3:52 PM UTC

bkanber wrote: post #157

BjoernKW wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all a contractor focuses on is her day job how is that different from traditional employment? Being able to focus on your day job while leaving everything else to another party is what employment is for. I'm all in favour of outsourcing the work that you're not good at or that's not part of your core business. However, in my opinion as a software development freelancer marketing and sales is a key part of your bus…

> However, in my opinion as a software development freelancer marketing and sales is a key part of your business. That is 100% your opinion. It is far from a rule that you should expect others to adhere to, especially given that there are tons of services out there that promise to remove that need. It's almost as if different people design, build and execute their lives differently, using different values. You're get…

> You're getting downvoted because you're asserting your opinion as a global truth. There is no universal law dictating how software freelancers should work.

No, there isn't but my point is that in case

- you're not responsible for your own marketing and sales

- you don't differentiate yourself from other service providers

- you're marketed by a third party as an anonymous set of technical acronyms

how does that justify becoming a freelancer in the first place? Simply for the higher rate and so your employer can save social security costs? That's not how self-employment is intended by the law. In that case, you're more likely to be an employee. Some countries even try to recoup social security payments on that basis.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#168

Post by asah » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 3:55 PM UTC

philtar wrote: post #97

featherverse wrote: post #51

All of those "freelancer" websites are scams. Freelancing is about not working for other men. It's about being your own boss. Those websites are not really freelancing, they're temp agencies hiring out short term contract work. That is not freelancing. Those websites all share specific qualities: The salaries are too low, the service quality is poor, and you'll be outbid by unskilled indian labor 90% of the time. Put…

Freelancing is about being able to work for whoever you want to. A temp can only work for one person at a time. Those websites allow you to work for more than one person at a time. So those people are, in fact, freelancers, not temps. I hire people on upwork. My favorite person charges $40 an hour. His work is great and gets repeat business from me many times a year. I'm not sure what you're referring to as a scam. T…

I also hire all sorts of people on upwork, both US and overseas, high-end and basic skills. Quality has been great, but as usual you need to pre-qualify.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#169

Post by vidarh » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 3:57 PM UTC

_wmd wrote: post #133

lsmod wrote: post #73

Stay away from Freelancer.com They reversed two milestone payments i had received, becasue they had to suspend the buyer's account due to some issues with the buyer's payment method. Note that this is after completing the project fully and leaving feedback for each other. I left the money on my Freelancer account, becasue they are/were having issues with Skrill withdrawals. It was there for about a month and they sud…

Their web application isn't the canonical source of whether they owe you money or not, a court decides that. I don't know in which jurisdiction Freelancer are based, but if there is a low cost small claims procedure, sounds like that would be worth you time. In the UK in a variety of circumstances you can petition a court to issue a wind up ("liquidation") order for a company if it refuses to service its debt to you.

Norwegian bankruptcy law also used to (probably still is, but I haven't worked in Norway for nearly 20 years) have a similar system where employees had that kind of protection at no cost for non-payment of wages.

All you need to do is to file and the company would need to show up in bankruptcy court and explain why they should be put under administration (and really the only valid reasons would be that they don't owe wages (any more)).

Very effective at ensuring companies protect wage payments - I repeatedly had it drilled into me from accountants when on the other side of the table how vital it was to ensure salaries payments went ahead no matter what other difficulties (the priority order was roughly taxes that it'd be an offense not to ring-fence, electricity/phone/internet because they could just shut down and wipe you out, and salaries - everything else was lower priority because it could be fought or negotiated over).

If you'd miss salary payments you had no recourse other than to beg and/or borrow or come to an understanding with employees.

The one thing giving you some flexibility was a government insurance pool for salary payments that'd cover up to 6 months, so if you treated people nice they'd be willing to give you some grace knowing their salaries would eventually get paid (though claiming back takes time).

It's a very useful way of leveling power in cases where managers might otherwise see employees as the easiest to push around.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#170

Post by convolvatron » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 3:58 PM UTC

soneca wrote: post #88

andrew_wc_brown wrote: post #70

Ever since Elance merged with ODesk to make Upwork getting online work has dried up, and so I have to rely on my personal network. With Elance you'd get leads for jobs, and take them offsite. Its not that I wouldn't want to use the ecosystem provided its just that it suck and took too much. Upwork takes more, and really locks you in. I refused to scan my license to become authorized. Even if I used the platform, taxe…

Toptal and Crossover might be an option. But I have no first hand experience with them to recommend.

toptal's screening process wants you to write a sample application. in my case the reviewer didn't actually want to look at it, and i was summarily failed. i feel pretty cheated.