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Freelancer.com has ruined my life

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Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#151

Post by twic »

_wmd wrote: post #133
lsmod wrote: post #73

Stay away from Freelancer.com They reversed two milestone payments i had received, becasue they had to suspend the buyer's account due to some issues with the buyer's payment method. Note that this is after completing the project fully and leaving feedback for each other. I left the money on my Freelancer account, becasue they are/were having issues with Skrill withdrawals. It was there for about a month and they sud…

Their web application isn't the canonical source of whether they owe you money or not, a court decides that. I don't know in which jurisdiction Freelancer are based, but if there is a low cost small claims procedure, sounds like that would be worth you time. In the UK in a variety of circumstances you can petition a court to issue a wind up ("liquidation") order for a company if it refuses to service its debt to you.

A friend of a friend got such an order for Tesco, our biggest supermarket chain, a few years ago. Needless to say, their invoice was paid very soon after that.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#152

Post by TomMarius »

twic wrote: post #151
_wmd wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their web application isn't the canonical source of whether they owe you money or not, a court decides that. I don't know in which jurisdiction Freelancer are based, but if there is a low cost small claims procedure, sounds like that would be worth you time. In the UK in a variety of circumstances you can petition a court to issue a wind up ("liquidation") order for a company if it refuses to service its debt to you.

A friend of a friend got such an order for Tesco, our biggest supermarket chain, a few years ago. Needless to say, their invoice was paid very soon after that.

Can you share more? Sounds interesting, especially as I'm reading your comment inside a Tesco store.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#153

Post by bkanber »

BjoernKW wrote: post #90

Some people, freelancers as well as clients and those middlemen that are unfortunately very common in this market, seem to fundamentally misunderstand what a freelancer or contractor is. Freelancing is not some alternative form of employment that allows you to conveniently dispense with social security costs. A freelancer is a self-employed service provider. Like with any other kind of self-employment you’re responsi…

Some people, consumers as well as producers and those middlemen that are unfortunately very common in all markets, seem to fundamentally misunderstand what an individual's relationship to global society is.

Grocery shopping is not some alternative form of agriculture that allows you to conveniently dispense with food security costs.

Like with anything else, you're responsible for your own food sourcing, production, horticulture, security, and for reasonably insuring yourself against calamities that might happen in life.

If you try to outsource those core responsibilities to another entity you only have yourself to blame. The same applies if you act irresponsibly in terms of health, eg by getting sick right before harvest season.

That said, it's well-known that all humans are overly dependent on middlemen like big agriculture, farm subsidies, commodities traders, shipping and logistics providers, supermarket chains, etc. So perhaps it's understandable if you turn to them when you start out.

You should always be aware however that you're on your own. They don't protect you. They just take a cut from your hard earned money. The sooner you extricate yourself from that dependency the better. Putting all your eggs in one global society is recklessly negligent.

----

My point is, we have a social contract here. Don't victim blame. Some unforeseen circumstance, like food supply shortage, could turn something you never expected to be a problem into something that kills you.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#154

Post by wolco »

bartedinburgh wrote: post #85

That's what happens when you entirely rely on one platform as your source of income, be it Freelancer, YouTube, Amazon, or anything else. You become de facto employed by the platform and can be let go in a similar way you can be fired from a regular job. If OP had a normal salaried job and was let go for whatever reason, would it matter if he used to be a good employee before, or had a car accident, or was short on c…

Full time jobs can't hold wages until other work is completed.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#155

Post by wolco »

wsc981 wrote: post #56
benkarst wrote: post #28

I've heard of several people getting screwed over by Freelancer. I don't see them as being around too often. Maybe Upwork and others will displace them? I recommend Open Door ( https://opendoorconnect.com/ ) to market yourself as a consultant or contractor. It's appointment based so it's not a pure alternative to Freelancer but IMO task based sites aren't worth it for talented developers.

Upwork also had similar stories in the past. I doubt it's much different from Freelancer.

Upwork has one advantage if you go hourly with the screenshot program those hours always get paid. If you go per project then you are at the mercy of the client.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#156

Post by jimnotgym »

BjoernKW wrote: post #135
jimnotgym wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another one of those 'blame the victim' responses. I work in an SME with more than 100 employees and I outsource legal work, HR work, payroll, tax accounting, property maintenance, web design, recruitment, marketing and lots of IT. Outsourcing specialisms to third parties is as old a society. A fundamental feature of our western democracies is a secure legal framework that means that I can use an agent and I can hold…

If all a contractor focuses on is her day job how is that different from traditional employment? Being able to focus on your day job while leaving everything else to another party is what employment is for. I'm all in favour of outsourcing the work that you're not good at or that's not part of your core business. However, in my opinion as a software development freelancer marketing and sales is a key part of your bus…

There are two things confused here. Lots of people go contracting in the UK because

1) You can earn more. A company will pay more as it can ditch the person at the end of the contract, when it is not a core competency of the firm.

2) There are tax benefits

3) When you contract is over you get a change of scenery

Many of those always contract through an agency

What you are describing is more like someone trying to start their own agency/practice. That is quite different and sales would be a big part of that.

> Those roles traditionally aren't marketed through middlemen simply because lawyers and tax accountants generally are considered to be independent professionals.

Your point that I was answering was that the contractor is outsourcing some services to the 'middlemen', not using a middleman to find those services

You are also not exactly right about accountants and lawyers. They join partnerships and associations exactly so they can get work from the practice and use their shared admin facilities. A barrister in the UK is a tenant of his chambers and the clerks get the work and the barrister has fees deducted for this service. This is exactly so they can concentrate on their day job.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#157

Post by bkanber »

BjoernKW wrote: post #135
jimnotgym wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another one of those 'blame the victim' responses. I work in an SME with more than 100 employees and I outsource legal work, HR work, payroll, tax accounting, property maintenance, web design, recruitment, marketing and lots of IT. Outsourcing specialisms to third parties is as old a society. A fundamental feature of our western democracies is a secure legal framework that means that I can use an agent and I can hold…

If all a contractor focuses on is her day job how is that different from traditional employment? Being able to focus on your day job while leaving everything else to another party is what employment is for. I'm all in favour of outsourcing the work that you're not good at or that's not part of your core business. However, in my opinion as a software development freelancer marketing and sales is a key part of your bus…

> However, in my opinion as a software development freelancer marketing and sales is a key part of your business.

That is 100% your opinion. It is far from a rule that you should expect others to adhere to, especially given that there are tons of services out there that promise to remove that need. It's almost as if different people design, build and execute their lives differently, using different values.

You're getting downvoted because you're asserting your opinion as a global truth. There is no universal law dictating how software freelancers should work.

In this one instance, your opinions are absolutely vindicated -- but what about the literal millions of successful freelancers where your opinions and advice mean bunk?

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#158

Post by everdev »

shock wrote: post #145
omegote wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Upwork is a little more protective in that aspect. You can clearly see from the beginning whether the client has a verified payment method.

I didn't find Upwork's contract without signing up, but before Elance merged with oDesk to become Upwork they had pretty onerous terms in their services agreement⁰: 9.Indemnification Contractor will defend, indemnify, and hold harmless Client against any damage, cost, loss or expense arising from a claim, suit or proceeding brought against Client (i) alleging that any Work Product infringes upon any Intellectual Prop…

Not a lawyer, but I think you're correct. I wouldn't sign this.

(iii) puts the burden on the client to prove that you breached the contract. So, that clause is reasonable even if it is burdensome.

For, (i) and (ii) the word "alleging" is problematic for me. Anyone can sue you alleging anything. Yes, you can recover court costs and lawyer fees if you win, but most patent trolls try to out-expense you and figure you'll settle at some point.

Either way, always do work and sign contracts as a legal entity, not an individual. Much better to lose your company than lose your house.

More detail: https://www.shouldisign.com/what-is-indemnification

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#159

Post by hackerpacker »

wolco wrote: post #130
arnvald wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is unfair. These websites are not scams. A couple of years ago I was looking for 10-15h/week gigs and using one of competitors of freelancer.com proved to work for me. Was it annoying to bid for gigs? Yes. Was the quality of their service low? Yeah, I'd say so. Were salaries low? For someone coming from Eastern Europe - not at all. On top of that, I always got money on time, which is not always the case…

I think freelancer.com is probably one of the worst places because it affords no protection

they are money changers, and the last thing you want in a contract is someone in the middle making arbitrary decisions about when you get paid.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#160

Post by lsmod »

_wmd wrote: post #133
lsmod wrote: post #73

Stay away from Freelancer.com They reversed two milestone payments i had received, becasue they had to suspend the buyer's account due to some issues with the buyer's payment method. Note that this is after completing the project fully and leaving feedback for each other. I left the money on my Freelancer account, becasue they are/were having issues with Skrill withdrawals. It was there for about a month and they sud…

Their web application isn't the canonical source of whether they owe you money or not, a court decides that. I don't know in which jurisdiction Freelancer are based, but if there is a low cost small claims procedure, sounds like that would be worth you time. In the UK in a variety of circumstances you can petition a court to issue a wind up ("liquidation") order for a company if it refuses to service its debt to you.

Thanks for the reply.

They have a registered office located in Australia.

It was a relatively easy job (took me about an hour and a half) and I only charge $75. So, not sure if it'll be worth the hassle.

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