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A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

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Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#341

Post by kadenshep »

AnthonBerg wrote: post #307
forapurpose wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an implicit idea around our culture that the more uncontrolled emotional content that someone communicates, especially anger, the more 'honest' they are - I think because it's intimidating, leaving less room for debate; it makes reasoning very difficult, leaving even less room for a rational approach; it's message is of being uncompromising, which also cuts off any thinking or discussion. By eliminating think…

I will never understand why this has been downvoted.

It's a maze of generic crap that no one wants to wade through?

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#342

Post by kadenshep »

lightedman wrote: post #298
kadenshep wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you able to provide a patch for the aforementioned elementary grade mistakes to the open source kernel project without introducing any kind of regression in user space?

That's not my job. I report bugs. I'm not getting paid to do that so doing so in my free time to be ignored is a waste of my productivity. I reported the bare-basic problem inherent in the buffer cache which lead to my kernel hardlock exploit and was summarily ignored as non-critical. So I've done my job. It's on Linus now to eat crow and get shit done. That's obviously not happening with his attitude.

But they're elementary bugs you could have just fixed for yourself. You clearly were trying to do something and the mistakes that were made were easily spotted, I'm confused as to why you just didn't do it at the very least for yourself?

>That's obviously not happening with his attitude.

Seems he's making a lot of things happen with his attitude as evidenced by the thread that was linked.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#343

Post by [deleted] »

s_dev wrote: post #304
bischofs wrote: post #140

Someone needs to codify this shit for when he leaves. Its surprising that he still needs to scream at people after two decades of kernel work. I don't have a lot of faith that whoever comes after him will be as proud of the kernel as he is given they just inherited most of it. Succession is a weird concept with linux but the fact that it has always been more stable than the other OS' is I think the main reason it is…

I don't think the Cook/Jobs comparison is fair. It's always been well understood the the same people who are typically good are starting companies aren't typically the best people to run them once they achieve a certain scale.

[deleted]

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#344

Post by Karliss »

steveklabnik wrote: post #159
majewsky wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a thing I've been wondering about. Is dynamic linking (in the way that C/C++ programs use it all the time) not a usecase that Rust wants to cover?

You can do dynamic linking, you just can't do it across compiler versions. This is how all of the Linux distros are doing it, for example. It's a spectrum: Rust: recompile the world when you update the compiler C++: recompile the world when you change ABIs or when the ABI changes (My understanding is that MSVC++ changes the ABI every ~2 years? I could be wrong.) C: never recompile the world It's not that we don't wan…

Starting with vs2015 microsoft promises more stable abi.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#345

Post by tertius »

busterarm wrote: post #337
jordigh wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Profanity by itself isn't the problem. I don't have a problem with shit piss cunt fuck either. It's telling a contributor that their contributions are worthless, cannot be fixed, and other ad-hominem angry insults that just fosters a macho, jockish atmosphere in Linux that has demonstrably alienated capable contributors. I'm sorry that Sarah Sharp is no longer maintaining the USB modules because of Linus's attitude,…

> It's telling a contributor that their contributions are worthless, cannot be fixed, and other ad-hominem angry insults that just fosters a macho, jockish atmosphere in Linux that has demonstrably alienated capable contributors. Linux is a project of such a massive scale that Linus has to accept kernel commits from circles of trust in his developer community. If someone demonstrates that they don't understand the fu…

I think you're addressing the first half of his objection to Linus' behaviour, not the second half though.

I agree with you completely, but I can see how this can be accomplished, i.e. removal of trust and correction (public at that) without the need to demolish the person him/herself.

I think we can both agree that it's a fine line though.

Personally, "losing your temper" (i.e. something you have to apologize for later) is something that should be relegated to children. Adults should exhibit self-control in this regard.

You can get the "job" done without this. Some have to work harder at it than others. But saying that it's just okay to denigrate others is not correct.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#346

Post by jsjohnst »

__david__ wrote: post #166
jsjohnst wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having had to fix a number of production issues where a change happened XX days ago but the code just silently kept going rather than breaking, I’m sorta of the mind to agree with you. I’d almost rather it break hard, so then I know it’s broke and can fix it. Very nuanced situation though and as such definitely not one size fits all.

That's fine when it's code that you wrote, but it would be really annoying to me as a user if htop (for example) started crashing on a kernel upgrade (instead of one the columns suddenly being zero).

Completely and totally agree! Why I said it was a nuanced situation and not one size fits all.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#347

Post by scott_karana »

proginthebox wrote: post #273
bischofs wrote: post #140

Someone needs to codify this shit for when he leaves. Its surprising that he still needs to scream at people after two decades of kernel work. I don't have a lot of faith that whoever comes after him will be as proud of the kernel as he is given they just inherited most of it. Succession is a weird concept with linux but the fact that it has always been more stable than the other OS' is I think the main reason it is…

We will hopefully have a new kernel written in Rust by someone new.

God, I hope not. Ground-up rewrites (when they even succeed) typically lose features, performance, and security, since they don't have the benefit of 20+ years of correcting mistakes. Plus you lose all your contributors.

However, Rust is linker compatible with C, and can be runtimeless, so rewriting the kernel piecemeal over time instead could be great. ;-)

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#349

Post by eutropia »

Torvalds gets upset about people messing things up because he cares. He reminds me of Gordon Ramsey, who also gets a bunch of shit for being an asshole to people who ruin food in his kitchen -- but Ramsey has more Michelin stars than anyone else...

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#350

Post by toomuchtodo »

rthomas6 wrote: post #340
toomuchtodo wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because high quality kernel code is more important than not alienating contributors. If someone prefers softer conduct, they are free to fork the kernel and start their own efforts.

Why do we have to choose one over the other? Why can't we have high quality kernel code AND not alienating contributors?

Because enforcing politeness and civility in large groups is impossible without top down leadership enforcing it, which Linus doesn’t appear to want to do. He has chosen code over comfort as the de facto leader of the project.
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