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A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

lkml.iu.edu

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Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#201

Post by sytse »

chrisper wrote: post #156
sytse wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great links. To make Linus his live easier I've made a website on http://www.firstruleofkerneldevelopment.com/ with those links so he can just reply with: "See www.firstruleofkerneldevelopment.com" instead of posting a rant.

He is never going to do that unless he owned the domain. He is not going to point to websites that could potentially change and show ads, malware or whatever.

If that is the case and if he's interested I would be happy to transfer the domain to him.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#202

Post by leeoniya »

invokestatic wrote: post #189
leeoniya wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Linus has made it incredibly damn clear what "no user space regressions ever" mean out of curiosity, how does a policy like this translate to microkernel OSes (e.g. Redox) where most everything runs in userspace?

Microkernels still need syscalls for usermode to interface with, so it is just as important. Kernels exist to serve userspace, not the other way around. Though, given the relative immaturity of Redox I assume this is less important compared to Linux.

i think Redox explicitly tries to limit the syscall exposure as well relative to linux. (dozens vs hundreds)

https://doc.redox-os.org/book/introduction/how_redox_compare...

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#203

Post by rthomas6 »

Karunamon wrote: post #168
jordigh wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> John Johansen will survive. We really need to stop excusing Linus's behaviour. Just because we may happen to agree with what he is saying doesn't mean we also have to agree with how he is saying it.

Disagree. It seems like Linus’ acerbic and direct means of communicating is the only thing keeping garbage code out of the kernel. He’s also made his views on “why not be nicer” well known. People need to get over it - his project, his rules. Plenty of other projects out there to hack on if getting yelled at when you disengage your brain is too much. Most of which don’t have the obsession with not breaking stuff for…

Just because Linus is effective at communicating what he wants doesn't mean his way is the best way. Why wouldn't it be even better if he alienated contributors less?

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#204

Post by Karunamon »

stinos wrote: post #176
Karunamon wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. It seems like Linus’ acerbic and direct means of communicating is the only thing keeping garbage code out of the kernel. He’s also made his views on “why not be nicer” well known. People need to get over it - his project, his rules. Plenty of other projects out there to hack on if getting yelled at when you disengage your brain is too much. Most of which don’t have the obsession with not breaking stuff for…

> acerbic and direct Isn't this just swearing? > the only thing keeping garbage code out of the kernel. I'm not sure if I'm buying that. It's possible, sure but on the other hand: It's not because the other way (i.e. communicating in a nice way, without all the swearing and direct attacks - which is imo not the same as direct communication ) hasn't been tried that somehow proves it won't work. E.g. I know repos where…

This isn’t a “disagreement” talk in the op. This is a “you screwed up and then lied about it and now I have to work around your bad faith” talk. Different purposes.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#205

Post by fernandotakai »

lightedman wrote: post #149

"a return to a former or less developed state." See, it's the fact that Linus doesn't even know the real definition of 'regression' that makes me think I cant' trust him or anything he produces. That level of idiocy is simply intolerable.

uh, what? software regression is a well known term that is widely used to say "something used to work and it doesn't work now"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_regression

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#206

Post by toomuchtodo »

rthomas6 wrote: post #203
Karunamon wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. It seems like Linus’ acerbic and direct means of communicating is the only thing keeping garbage code out of the kernel. He’s also made his views on “why not be nicer” well known. People need to get over it - his project, his rules. Plenty of other projects out there to hack on if getting yelled at when you disengage your brain is too much. Most of which don’t have the obsession with not breaking stuff for…

Just because Linus is effective at communicating what he wants doesn't mean his way is the best way. Why wouldn't it be even better if he alienated contributors less?

Because high quality kernel code is more important than not alienating contributors.

If someone prefers softer conduct, they are free to fork the kernel and start their own efforts.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#207

Post by taneq »

bjourne wrote: post #42

John Johansen will survive. Linus has made it incredibly damn clear what "no user space regressions ever" mean. See f.e the similar rant from 2012: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75 And it is his kernel so it is his rules. John Johansen admitted he messed up ( http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1710.3/02539.html ) and promised to handle things better in the future so all is well.

> http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1710.3/02539.html

Wow. Now that's how you do an apology. If anything my confidence in this guy is increased.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#209

Post by wang_li »

masklinn wrote: post #40
worldsayshi wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For user experience reasons that seems like a extremely sensible principle. But doesn't this make fixing some security issues impossible?

From the followup message Kalleboo linked to: > There have been exceptions, but they are few and far between, and they generally have some major and fundamental reasons for having happened, that were basically entirely unavoidable, and people _tried_hard_ to avoid them. Maybe we can't practically support the hardware any more after it is decades old and nobody uses it with modern kernels any more. Maybe there's a ser…

A number of years ago some dillhole became annoyed that strings in the kernel inconsistently capitalized null, sometimes it was "null" sometimes "NULL". So they submitted a patch to make them consistent. This broke the iscsi userland. As far as I know, it was never reverted.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#210

Post by dawnbreez »

sepeth wrote: post #120
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Annoying and hurtful, yes, but at the same time, he's not wrong - you fucked up, you did bad and you should feel bad. The upside of this rant too is that the author is not "fired", as such, but told to shape up or gtfo. In a lot of companies, mistakes are accepted, fixed, and forgiven without adding a bit of emotion to it. I think adding this kind of emotion will have a bigger impact and will make the receiving end d…

How? Really? Ask that to a child beaten up by their parents in the street. I am sure that child won't make the same mistake again. I am not interested about if Linus is right or wrong, many other people have done that already. I am more interested the way that he speaks. I am gonna go ahead and say it. The way he speaks in this email is ugly, wrong, and should never be encouraged. The language we use is important, ev…

Equating this email to a parent beating their child is a false equivalency. Firstly, because Linus has not physically attacked the developer, and secondly, because the developer--unlike the child--should know better. This is more like Gordon Ramsay going off on a chef who has just told a customer off for not liking his burnt toast.
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