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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#771

Post by pers0n »

thecrazyone wrote: post #648
jasode wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. To me, it seems your characterization of "true point" adds layers of abstractions such as "nationalists" and "right-wing movements" . Sure, you're writing text that can be considered "correct" but it actually doesn't h…

On tangential note, California should secede from US.

Trump would impose a tariff on all goods coming in. And I would hope th Us govt would shut down all military and US govt aid and jobs in California if so, regardless of political party

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#772

Post by alvatar »

phaemon wrote: post #432
alvatar wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not limited to that. I agree that you should be able to learn in Catalan (but have the option of Spanish too). Visit the Catalan wikipedia, and you'll see how History is changed there with respect other Wikipedias. Read their books to see the bias in the way History is told. Indoctrination is a message with a "them and us" message that polarizes society, and has successfully done so. We all know words can be use…

Once again, vague accusations with no concrete examples. I'm not convinced. Sounds like you just have a bias against Catalonia.

Here you have a hint of the indoctrination: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/29/world/europe/spain-catalo...

“We are not even allowed to wear a bracelet to school with the Spanish flag’s colors, but you can wear one with the independence colors,” Ms. Camina said.

Ollala de Mora, 16, said: “People in school are really against Spain. Our teachers try to influence us. They say the Spain steals from us and the government is bad. If you think differently from that, they try to change your mind.”

That is indoctrination, and there are constant examples of this in daily life for decades. Only the thought of hating Spain is encourage, and less often the thought of coexistence. No wonder that things are like they are now.

And NY Times is one the biased media I see, clearing the supporting more the Catalonian side.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#773

Post by gonvaled »

fasteo wrote: post #768
gonvaled wrote: post #708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don"t follow you. Are you are too old to believe in the fairy tale of honestly implementing your campaign promises, so you prefer the proven method of lying to the ellectorate? What honest politicians you old realists aspire to: those in the respectable business of doing whatever they want to, completely disregarding any promises made? I bet you also welcome corruption since, you know, how would anyone believe in, or…

>>> I bet you also welcome corruption Don't be a jerk. You seem to be a clever person. This is not what I meant. And you know it. My position in quite simple. I do not believe in politician's altruism. They are all going to prison and I do no think they are doing it for the Calalonian people. That's all. Time will tell.

It's not about altruism. It's about doing what they promised. I do not care about their hidden motives (they are hidden, by definition, so who the hell knows what they really want to achieve). I care about politician X doing Y, as he said in the campaign. People elected him for Y, so if he does it, that's fine.

Now, you can wonder why people find Y so important, but it's not up to me to judge them: it is not important for me, but it's important for the majority, and as such I must respect it.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#774

Post by nubol »

nubol wrote: post #747
nubol wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, maybe because it was not legal, anyway, it does not show in an accurate way the opinion of the Catalans.

Funny that I got downvoted for saying that, I will say it again, it was not legal, and therefore because the lack of participation is not representing the opinion of the Catalans.

Obviously there is no legitimacy on declaring the independence in an unilateral way considering that the referendum was illegal. What is happening is pure "picaresca española" ;)

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#775

Post by hyperdunc »

lisper wrote: post #506
alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

There is a very similar dynamic in U.S. politics between extremists on the right and the left, both of whom need each other in order to remain relevant. The big difference is that in the U.S. leftist extremists have been all but eliminated, so rightist extremists need to invent all kinds of boogymen to replace them. Gays and Muslims and their supporters are currently being cast in this role.

There is a very similar dynamic in U.S. politics between extremists on the right and the left, both of whom need each other in order to remain relevant. The big difference is that in the U.S. true right wing extremists have been all but eliminated, so radical leftist activists need to invent all kinds of boogymen to replace them. "White supremacists" and their supporters are currently being cast in this role.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#776

Post by fasteo »

gonvaled wrote: post #773
fasteo wrote: post #768

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> I bet you also welcome corruption Don't be a jerk. You seem to be a clever person. This is not what I meant. And you know it. My position in quite simple. I do not believe in politician's altruism. They are all going to prison and I do no think they are doing it for the Calalonian people. That's all. Time will tell.

It's not about altruism. It's about doing what they promised. I do not care about their hidden motives (they are hidden, by definition, so who the hell knows what they really want to achieve). I care about politician X doing Y, as he said in the campaign. People elected him for Y, so if he does it, that's fine. Now, you can wonder why people find Y so important, but it's not up to me to judge them: it is not importan…

I just think that Y is a masquerade and the meat is in the hidden motives.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#777

Post by panglott »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #652
panglott wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key point for me was when Spain announced that they were going to remove Catalonia's autonomy and dissolve its parliament. What did they expect Catalonia to do? This seems like an iconic example of what NOT to do when faced with an independence referendum. Compare the situation in Scotland or Canada, where AIUI the central government grudgingly permitted the referendum, campaigned on the issue locally, and offere…

It seems to me that Catalonia has put the rest of Spain in a "no win" situation. If Spain tries to prevent the (unconstitutional) vote, then Catalonia tries very hard to push to have the vote anyway, and Spain either has to enforce their ban on the vote (which means violence), or else back down. If Spain doesn't forbid the vote, then the vote gains legitimacy in public opinion. So either Spain's the bad guy (because…

If the referendum has no legal weight, then going to such lengths to quash it instead magnifies its importance, since the Spanish government clearly views it as being more dangerous than it is.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#778

Post by logfromblammo »

pvaldes wrote: post #706
logfromblammo wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are not disputing that the people who appear to be police are genuinely police, or that they actually engaged in violence against people engaged in a (nominally) peaceful protest against the authority of the national government? If a real cop really hit a person, and that resulted in real injury, that's not a fake video. I think it's impressive that a Spanish cop can hold out for two hours of continuous abuse…

> The apparent victims were not as injured as they appeared to be "Policemen broke deliberately all my fingers one to one and throw me down the stairs". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYl054MItd8 Video shows later that policemen grab her by the right hand. For some reason the bandage is in her left hand. Hospital report explained later that one finger was "sored", I don't know the exact term for capsulitis in englis…

Well done. That's the type of counterargument I was looking for. I already suspected the "broke all my fingers, one by one" claim to be a gross exaggeration, at the least. The video itself did not support the claim, and it would seem easy enough to establish or disprove after the fact with hospital records.

From what I saw, "they threw me down the stairs" is also obvious exaggeration. While it is not a preferred manner of descent, I think "they dragged/forced me down the stairs" would have been more accurate.

It is still clear that police used force. It is not clear to me whether it was an appropriate use of force by Spanish or European standards.

This is the sort of thing that is commonly accepted from American cops during protests, even though it is nominally unconstitutional for them to deprive people of their right to petition the government for redress under color of law. So I genuinely don't know whether that is the sort of thing that gets Spaniards angry at their government.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#779

Post by lisper »

hyperdunc wrote: post #775
lisper wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a very similar dynamic in U.S. politics between extremists on the right and the left, both of whom need each other in order to remain relevant. The big difference is that in the U.S. leftist extremists have been all but eliminated, so rightist extremists need to invent all kinds of boogymen to replace them. Gays and Muslims and their supporters are currently being cast in this role.

There is a very similar dynamic in U.S. politics between extremists on the right and the left, both of whom need each other in order to remain relevant. The big difference is that in the U.S. true right wing extremists have been all but eliminated, so radical leftist activists need to invent all kinds of boogymen to replace them. "White supremacists" and their supporters are currently being cast in this role.

Right. That's why there's so much controversy about taking down all those statues of Lenin around the U.S.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#780

Post by fixermark »

coryfklein wrote: post #596
babuskov wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You dont need outside support to declare independence You don't. But you do need it for anyone in the world to accept is as a fact. A region like that cannot isolate itself from the rest of the world.

If a group of people had enough military might to declare themselves independent and not fall to subsequent invasion, then it doesn't matter what the rest of the world "thinks", they are independent.

I'm pretty sure most sub-regions wouldn't trade their political dependence for North Korean-style independence (but I admit to not knowing the hearts and desires of most people ;) ).
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