Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

I know the history of Spain really well, being Catalan and with part of my ancestors assessinated by Franco's regime.

Being pro-Spanish did not mean shit for Franco and the fascist regime. The rebelled against a perfectly pro-Spanish republican government. The assassinated millions of socialist, communist, anarchist who were pro Spanish. Big majority of catalans were also pro Spanish and suffered prosecution.

But they supported a different Spain than the fascist/catholic nationalist Spain than Franco's side. They supported a plural, multinational Spain, where all national and regional feelings were respected and supported.

> The State, perhaps?

This is also confusing in nations where administrative regions are called states. I've seen some media refer to Catelonia as a state, although I believe the term used in Spain is autonomous community.

As a general principle, I think Catalan independence is a question for the Catalans to decide. As a foreigner, it's not my place to have an opinion on another country's self-determination. I am troubled that Spain suppressed the referendum, because it seems out of step with the behavior of other liberal, democratic, Western states. For example, Scotland and Quebec were both allowed to have referendums, and while the leaders of the British and Canadian central governments definitely campaigned to remain unified, they allowed the people to have their say.

> Whoever the winner of this fight is, it will be a sad day for Europe, because nationalism and national borders will have prevailed and this goes against everything we need to build a stronger and better EU.

I look at the secessionist movements across Europe and wonder if that's really necessarily the case.

Historically, the benefit for ethnic nations like Croatia, Slovakia, Scotland, and Catalonia to remained within larger states is largely in order to enjoy the benefits of common markets and open borders, and partially to enjoy the benefits of common defense. Doesn't the EU make those motivations less compelling rather than more compelling? The EU already provides common markets and open borders and NATO provides common defense; why can't Catalonia be their own EU member state just like Croatia, Czechia, Ireland, Malta, Slovakia, or Slovenia--all of which separated from larger states in the past?

So you are not disputing that the people who appear to be police are genuinely police, or that they actually engaged in violence against people engaged in a (nominally) peaceful protest against the authority of the national government? If a real cop really hit a person, and that resulted in real injury, that's not a fake video.

I think it's impressive that a Spanish cop can hold out for two hours of continuous abuse before breaking, but again, I'm used to American cops. Quite a lot of ours can maintain a professional demeanor for an entire shift of continual public abuse, maybe even for several days in a row, as might occur in a G20 protest or similar, but we also have some who will retaliate for frowning at them, or giving them "dehumanizing looks". Sometimes all it takes is just being there while black, or pointing a camera in their general direction.

The international--or at least Western European--expectation for police, as I understand it, is that a cop never breaks down and assaults a person who is not already violent or otherwise endangering the public, regardless of how unpleasant they may be in their non-violence. I'm pretty sure that would never work here. If you can't occasionally gun down a man in the streets just for looking at you funny, how can you expect to generate that pervading aura of absolute terror that keeps everyone nervously polite and law-abiding the rest of the time you're around?~

I'm sorry to tell you that cutting out the three hours of tension prior to the most-viewed portion of the video does not actually debunk it. You'll need to show one of the following:

  - The police in the videos were not real police.
  - The apparent victims became violent prior to the start of the video.
  - The apparent victims were not as injured as they appeared to be.

If the video does show a real person assaulted and battered by a real cop for no reason considered valid under any theory of the ethical use of force, I don't know how you can realistically claim that it is fake or debunked. Good cops don't punch peaceful people in any country, no matter how rude or angry they get. They don't even punch the notorious criminals. They use the minimum amount of force necessary to preserve the peace, and do not allow their personal emotions to interfere with that duty.

Well, then I deeply apologize.

My first reaction to your post was also thinking that you had emotional ties to it, but then I assumed you were just some internet guy with shallow knowledge. Well, wrong. I am the guy with shallow knowledge compared to you.

Anyway, I still want to state, that I did not said that the catalans suffered the most, just "more than other areas". But I don't think I should say more on this.

I am sorry for your family.