Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain • Hacker News Board

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#631

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 7:25 PM UTC

smcl wrote: post #626

_Tev wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laws are usually there for a reason. You could apply your whole argument to public opinion and referendums - public will change mind a lot, why make such drastic moves based on it?

Usually laws are there for a reason. Then sometimes we have to repeal "slavery is OK" or "black people count for 3/5 of white people" or "women can't vote" laws. Because they're obviously wrong.

There never was a black people count for 3/5 of white people.

It was “states that have slavery get to count 3/5 of their enslaved population when determining the representation the free population gets in Congress (and, hence, also it's voting power in Presidential elections.)”

It's actually worse than black people counting as 3/5 of a white person; its more like slaveholders counting as 1 + (slaves held × 3) / 5 people.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#632

Post by tincholio » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 7:25 PM UTC

alehul wrote: post #575

alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

> Whoever the winner of this fight is, it will be a sad day for Europe, because nationalism and national borders will have prevailed and this goes against everything we need to build a stronger and better EU. I presume it was also a 'sad day for Europe' when 'nationalism prevailed' and the Baltic states gained independence from the Soviet Union? Catalonia, more so than Estonia, has a distinct culture, including a lan…

> Catalonia, more so than Estonia, has a distinct culture, including a language which has, at points, been illegal to write, teach, or even speak publicly on their own land. Their ties to Spain are a result of a fascist dictator who managed to largely avoid WWII and continue his reign until he died of natural causes, with his formed empire still intact.

I'm sorry, but those things are simply untrue. Estonia does have a completely different language than Russian, and Estonians are culturally also different than whatever the rest of the URSS was (indeed, one of the largest problems Moscow had in URSS times was keeping together such a collection of disparate cultures). Regarding Catalonian ties to Spain, they very much predate Franco, by several hundred years.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#633

Post by hutzlibu » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 7:25 PM UTC

pvaldes wrote: post #613

hutzlibu wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Note that this happened all over Spain, it was not just Catalonia suffering this." But they probably suffered much more than others. Definitely more than spanish thinking people. "Resentment may fuel nationalist feelings, but makes a bad argument in the current setting." It is not about resentment, but about the fear that those who suppressed the catalans still would do it, if they can. Openly or behind doors. And i…

> they probably suffered much more than others You must be joking... :-(

Do you know the history of spain and the civil war?

Even if not, don't you think it makes a difference for an area under spanish fascist rule, if most of the residents are pro spanish or if they are against it??

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#634

Post by Grustaf » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 7:31 PM UTC

alehul wrote: post #575

alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

> Whoever the winner of this fight is, it will be a sad day for Europe, because nationalism and national borders will have prevailed and this goes against everything we need to build a stronger and better EU. I presume it was also a 'sad day for Europe' when 'nationalism prevailed' and the Baltic states gained independence from the Soviet Union? Catalonia, more so than Estonia, has a distinct culture, including a lan…

>Catalonia, more so than Estonia, has a distinct culture

What makes you say that?

Estonia is a protestant country of Finnic people speaking a Finno-Ugric language that is completely unrelated to even the Indo-European language family.

Soviet, like Russia now, was a Eurasian empire mostly made up of Orthodox Slavs speaking a Slavic language. These are quite distinct cultures, at least as different as Germany and France (yes, both these are also patchworks like Spain but you get the point).

Catalonia is distinct, but they have a similar language, the same religion and much shared history. It's more like Sweden and Denmark.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#635

Post by pvaldes » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 7:32 PM UTC

pvaldes wrote: post #465

RobertoG wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you feel the need to use slavery or communist as an example here, instead of, for instance, secessionist. Maybe you expect to elicit a sense of horror in your readers?

Well, some of the ingredients here are the comrades of the self claimed anticapitalist party Popular Unity Candidacy (CUP) asking for some veeery peculiar things, (i.e. proposing to expropriate the Cathedral of Barcelona to make a market and a school of music there), and there was also a larvate (and sometimes not so larvate) racism and harassment against non indepentendist spaniards that last for years. Taking all o…

larvate -> latent

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#636

Post by smcl » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 7:33 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #631

smcl wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually laws are there for a reason. Then sometimes we have to repeal "slavery is OK" or "black people count for 3/5 of white people" or "women can't vote" laws. Because they're obviously wrong.

There never was a black people count for 3/5 of white people. It was “states that have slavery get to count 3/5 of their enslaved population when determining the representation the free population gets in Congress (and, hence, also it's voting power in Presidential elections.)” It's actually worse than black people counting as 3/5 of a white person; its more like slaveholders counting as 1 + (slaves held × 3) / 5 peo…

Thanks for clarifying - my knowledge of US history is bad. But the point stands - bad laws exist and "it is the law" does not necessarily mean "it is right"

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#637

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 7:38 PM UTC

narag wrote: post #116

Ygg2 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The new reality is that Spain is probably going bankrupt.

Nonsense. Most of the big companies have left Catalonia last month. Half of Catalonia population doesn't want independence. Rule of law will be restored in a few weeks and all the thugs that have promoted this idiocy will be jailed. Edit: to the person responding, you only see what you want to see. Police acted according to judiciary orders and there were no deaths and just a handful of injured people. Try to resist…

[deleted]

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#638

Post by tassl » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 7:40 PM UTC

pvaldes wrote: post #627

panglott wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key point for me was when Spain announced that they were going to remove Catalonia's autonomy and dissolve its parliament. What did they expect Catalonia to do? This seems like an iconic example of what NOT to do when faced with an independence referendum. Compare the situation in Scotland or Canada, where AIUI the central government grudgingly permitted the referendum, campaigned on the issue locally, and offere…

Some people does not understand that the independence referendum is a MacGuffin here. Not the main goal. Is just a symbol of power. Another step to bend the arm of the central government again, not the end of the agenda. Catalonian people had another referendum in 2016, plus one free elections in between. Is insane to keep asking for a referendum each 6 months until independence is forced

That's not true. There was no referendum in 2016 and there is no "keep asking for a referendum" because the only referendum held was 1-O, and did not come from an agreement with Spanish government.

If Spain would have agreed on a referendum, the current situation would be very different.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#639

Post by pvaldes » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 7:42 PM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #600

pvaldes wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Viral videos of people getting beaten by police is only going to increase the number of people willing to fight to make it stop More lies. The 90% of this videos were proven fake

As an American, I am automatically suspicious of any claim that video of a cop beating someone has been faked. While we do tend to think that our cops are the best in the world at being unnecessarily violent against suspects, especially minorities and pet dogs, we are aware that cops in other countries are also capable of lesser brutality. Except in Scandinavia, where suspects are ordered into the comfy chair, offere…

> how they faked those videos.

1) challenge police for two or three hours

or directly harass them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VochqAemgP0

2) keep the challenge until triggering a reaction

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0GwYEfTgzw

3) Good job, now film it

4) Upload the parts that support your discourse to internet, carefully hiding half of the history

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#640

Post by Grustaf » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 7:43 PM UTC

coryfklein wrote: post #596

babuskov wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You dont need outside support to declare independence You don't. But you do need it for anyone in the world to accept is as a fact. A region like that cannot isolate itself from the rest of the world.

If a group of people had enough military might to declare themselves independent and not fall to subsequent invasion, then it doesn't matter what the rest of the world "thinks", they are independent.

They may be independent in some sense but it still matters a great deal. If other nations don't accept your sovereignty you can't really have trade or diplomatic relations. Just ask South Ossetia, Novorossia or Transdnistria. These days it's pretty pointless to be independent if you can't have foreign trade.