Earlier quoted context omitted.
> On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "make history". In this case, though, these politicians do so at great personal risk. Many are already imprisoned. Even if Cataluña gains sovereignty, chances are that they will be held for high treason by the Spanish authorities. The Spanish authorities are taking…
is High Treason punishable by death in modern Spain?
Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
571–580 of 785 posts
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#572Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have no crystal ball, but most of this people are just entitled rich kids. There are a few gangs in the movement that are used to organized violence, but most of the people shouting in the streets will not stand real mambo for five minutes. I do fear Russia involvement. Putin sent a messenger from South Osetia.
How are people supposed to take you seriously if you call us entitled rich kids. How ignorant. Care to explain what this real mambo is supposed to be? Sending the military?
What I think will happen? Apart from what they themselves will do, nothing. Public officers, including regional police, won't resist since their payroll depends on them obeying orders. Politicians might play some games but they know that a single death will trigger the rebellion prosecution and get them jailed for 30 years.
So it will most likely amount to some unrest, demostration, vandalism and all the noise we're used to.
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#573It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…
This mischaracterization is very common. The phallacy is framing the people against nationalism as nationalists. It's the same dirty trick as saying that atheism is just another kind of religion. Of course you add the "extreme-right" insult for good measure. Most people in Spain are not nationalists of any kind. That's just a lie. Nationalist votes are, being most generous under 10% of national grand total. People op…
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#574Earlier quoted context omitted.
"It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union." And I think it is very hard to discuss something, by starting with telling everybody else that they are wrong. Now while it is true, that the conflict is…
> And many died, were tortured or disappeared who did not bow their head low enough to the fascists. So one should not forget that long episode. Note that this happened all over Spain, it was not just Catalonia suffering this. > Spain also never had a denazification since Franco Spain has had a low-speed consolidation of its democratic system. It is important to realize that, even though slow, it is miraculous that S…
But they probably suffered much more than others. Definitely more than spanish thinking people.
"Resentment may fuel nationalist feelings, but makes a bad argument in the current setting."
It is not about resentment, but about the fear that those who suppressed the catalans still would do it, if they can. Openly or behind doors. And it seems that there is some truth to it, with police bashing unarmed people who just want to vote.
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#575It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…
I presume it was also a 'sad day for Europe' when 'nationalism prevailed' and the Baltic states gained independence from the Soviet Union?
Catalonia, more so than Estonia, has a distinct culture, including a language which has, at points, been illegal to write, teach, or even speak publicly on their own land. Their ties to Spain are a result of a fascist dictator who managed to largely avoid WWII and continue his reign until he died of natural causes, with his formed empire still intact.
Why is their desire for independence some negative form of nationalism that must be stomped out? If they want to join the EU in the future, shouldn't it be on their own terms, or should they be forced to partake?
Your comments are otherwise accurate and unbiased on some points, but I don't see the problem with the whole of Europe not yearning for the same dream of a globalized, economically united continent void of national identity.
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#576From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…
That's not how referendums work. Are you saying that if tomorrow you and few buddies decided to set up a new country, on a land you own, via a "referendum", the government should just go with it?
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#577Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…
"Catalonia was never independent" - it was indeed, and in the 20th century. George Orwell wrote a first hand account of his observations while fighting for their independence called "On Catalonia". Worth a read if you're looking for historical context.
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#578What I want to say is: many, if not most, Spaniards (non-catalans) do actually support the idea of holding a referendum, me included. The problem is that it's constintuationally illegal, and we should have changed the Constitution for that. And we should have. However, is not that clear who should be allowed to vote there. The land of the Catalans belongs in theory to all the Spaniards, in the same way that the rest of the lands of Spain belong to the Catalans. Who is Catalan is also hard to define, since we all have Spanish passport. If I live there for 5 years, am I Catalan? Well, considering that a big majority of catalans do actually have family from other parts of Spain, is hard to argue there is any kind of pure genetic lineage. In theory, we should have allowed all Spaniards vote first on holding a referendum or not. And then also ask "the Catalans" under a clear definition of _who_ is Catalan and has the exclusive right to vote on the right to rule that land. Perhaps also we should have voted on different regions, since there are parts that don't want to be independent, or perhaps just want to be independent of Catalonia altogether (such is the case of Vall d'Aran).
Many people seems to have a very easy time blaming Spain of being an authoritarian country, without understanding the depth and complexity of the problem, or that what a government does doesn't represent what all the people want. They were not voted in to do this, they were voted because the other alternatives failed to deliver in many ways in previous mandates. It was a reactionary voting. There are many people in Spain claiming for referendums. And also many people in Spain that see the independence of Catalonia the only way to keep advancing as a country where other less favoured regions could also prosper.
Honestly, I wish people from other countries would double-check facts and go deeper in understanding the situation. While I'm very ashamed of what the police did in the votings, there is a longer story behind all this that has been sadly summarized by videos and pictures of that violent day. That was a terrible mistake from a government I don't feel identified with. I'm both ashamed of Spain and of Catalonia. I whish we knew how to live together. We are both going to do worse now. We are a fractured society. Both sides. Both sides lied, both sides manipulated.
Spain is a country of many cultures and languages. We could be an example of the world. But we are not. No Catalonia is not the only region with historical differences. Andalusia was the cultural center of Europe in the 10th century. Euskadi is an industrial powerhorse. Galicia has celtic roots. Canary Islands is a beautiful mix of Latin American culture, Africa and south Spain. And so it goes for many other regions.
As a Spaniard, I believe the best course of action is to split the country (sorry, I still don't buy that Spain conquered Catalonia, that just never happened, so yes, split a 500-years old country is the accurate definition).
‘I am firmly convinced that Spain is the strongest country of the world. Century after century trying to destroy herself and still no success’ - Otto von Bismark
Well, actually maybe is time to try to start all over again. But please, check all historical facts and try to read both sides of the story. Don't buy that the Spaniards "are retrograde, old-fashined, stubborn, imperialistic, etc...", and the Catalans represent all good that happen in Spain, because that's unfair and untrue.
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#579Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, the spanish government was quite brutal in its attempt to stymie the referendum That's wrong. There were a handful of injured, don't believe the propaganda. Most international media that were fooled by that lies have acknowledged this much.
Regardless of the scale and strength of the repression I'm still of the opinion that it was unwarranted. Declare the referendum to be illegal, tell lawful spanish citizens to stay home then disregard the results. Maybe prosecute the people organizing the referendum if the law allows it. Even though the referendum was illegal it didn't create any imminent danger. Therefore I think the use of force by Madrid was dispro…
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#580From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…
The key point for me was when Spain announced that they were going to remove Catalonia's autonomy and dissolve its parliament. What did they expect Catalonia to do? This seems like an iconic example of what NOT to do when faced with an independence referendum. Compare the situation in Scotland or Canada, where AIUI the central government grudgingly permitted the referendum, campaigned on the issue locally, and offere…
I think the issue lies in that those central governments have become more tame over time, while Spain hasn't. They were largely united under a dictator where, in the very recent past, it was illegal for Catalans to teach their language or even speak it publicly.
Spain realizes the fragility of their position, and they're choosing to lash out in the same way Franco would have.