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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#381

Post by rjsw »

liberte82 wrote: post #312
cavanasm wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm under the impression the only way an independence vote could be legal is if the Spanish Constitution was changed to allow that. The current constitution declares Spain "indivisible", with no more specific details. That would seem to pretty clearly exclude any possibility of a part of Spain legally separating from Spain. The UK's legal system is a little slipperier. UK doesn't have a hard and fast Constitution. If…

It's interesting how this stems from a cultural difference. In very general terms, the UK is based on common law, in which we decide the truth as we go, based on the decisions of parliament and court cases. Spain and France are based on civil law, which are much more rigid and top-down, but also more clearly defined. In civil law, if it's not explicitly declared illegal, you can do it. In common law, it's a little mu…

The UK is a mix of legal systems, Scotland is different from the other parts of the Union, so there is already some expectation of flexibility.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#382

Post by alvatar »

icebraining wrote: post #307
alvatar wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for polarizing into "better and worse" humans.

It's called a joke. I'm a descendant of Galicians myself.

No times for jokes when the whole country is a mess due to a nationalist movement.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#383

Post by pjc50 »

narag wrote: post #335
dan_mctree wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The international/European response is not set in stone and could wildly vary based on the Spanish response. If they send in troops, and should those troops fire on civilians, the Spanish may well lose international support. They were heavily condemned just for their police actions around the referendum. There also aren't that many countries that have serious internal strife in the western world anyway, that point is…

The international/European response is not set in stone and could wildly vary based on the Spanish response. That's absolutely wrong. And thinking that Spain will need to fire on civilians is ridiculous. Either wishful thinking or you are ridiculously misinformed.

It's very difficult to predict what will happen and there has been considerable restraint so far, but Spain also had an armed separatist group for years (ETA), and crowd management can go very wrong very quickly.

The 2011 London riots were extremely severe and lasted three days, despite not really having any political basis or leadership, and there were plenty of rightwing politicians calling for military intervention.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#384

Post by antientropic »

zeveb wrote: post #304
fusiongyro wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a legal way for US states to secede?

The 10th Amendment reads 'The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.' The Constitution is silent on secession: it neither forbids it nor lays out procedures for it. Since the power to remove a State from the United States is not delegated to the United States, it is reserved to the respective States,…

That may be your interpretation of the constitution, but it is not the precedent established by the American Civil War, and it is not the interpretation of the Supreme Court: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#385

Post by Boothroid »

kgwgk wrote: post #159
Boothroid wrote: post #4

I guess Spain is hoping that power still comes from the barrel of a gun, judging by the violence employed on referendum day - but interested to see what the hell Spain thinks it can do if the whole of Catalonia goes on strike. I guess it's a battle of wills now. How much of the population of Catalonia really want independence, and what sacrifices are they willing to make to get it?

> judging by the violence employed on referendum day It was not as much as it seemed: "That woman who had all her fingers broken. She hadn’t. That six-year-old boy, paralysed by police brutality? It didn’t happen. Serious injuries on the day: just two." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/08/catalonia-demo...

The video I saw on the news was enough evidence for me. Are you saying that was faked? And in any case, as far as I'm concerned any level of violence is unacceptable. Madrid made itself look like a tin-pot dictatorship, which is particularly unfortunate given its history. It would have been far better to let the referendum happen and say 'and'? Reacting with violence demonstrated fear, not strength, and if anything seemed to strengthen the case for independence.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#386

Post by Findeton »

dragonwriter wrote: post #368
Ajedi32 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused. A petition to the Catalan government, by the Catalan parliament? They're petitioning themselves?

“government” here seems to mean roughly what, in the American system, would be called the “administration” or “executive branch”. From the procedural descriptions, this looks less like what Americans would think of as a “request” or “petition” than passing a bill and sending it for the assent of the executive (which might be given or withheld), as is the typical mode of legislation in the US system (both at the feder…

It's not a bill, as it's not a law. It's a formal request to the executive branch to do something.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#387

Post by _r_o_y_ »

ecshafer wrote: post #107
simion314 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the referendum was invalid because of the constitution, you can't ignore the constitution because you want, you need to change the constitution.

This is really not a useful argument. Self determination is a natural right. The idea that it's against the law to seek it doesn't work when the people themselves are arguing they don't want to be under that law.

Then you should use the process laid by the constitution to change it, not unilaterally decide the law doesn't apply to you.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#388

Post by pjmlp »

hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

Regarding history you just skipped over the part in 1640, where we were lucky that Filipe IV could not fight two rebellions at the same time and decided to send the troops just to Catalonia, allowing Portugal to regain independence.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#389

Post by dragonwriter »

logfromblammo wrote: post #378
Ajedi32 wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Catalunia becoming independent would have consequences throughout the country, shouldn't everybody get to vote? That's a strange argument. Should the other member states of the EU have gotten to vote on Brexit?

The people of Catalonia vote on whether they are willing to fight for their independence. The people in the rest of Spain can vote on whether they are willing to force that fight to take place. An EU vote on Brexit would make no sense, as one or more of the countries would have to withdraw from NATO in order for a war to occur. The unlikelihood of war among NATO members is probably one of the reasons why exit procedu…

> An EU vote on Brexit would make no sense, as one or more of the countries would have to withdraw from NATO in order for a war to occur.

No, it might be that, if a war occurred either NATO would cease to exist as a credible alliance or one or more countries would be expelled from it and find themselves at war with it, but certainly withdrawal from NATO isn't a necessary precondition for war.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#390

Post by fasteo »

This was just a rhetoric declaration as they knew that the government would trigger the 155 article moments after this declaration.

In practical terms, it means nothing. At least nothing for Catalonia as a region. The Catalonian government, however, will face rebellion charges on Monday. They can get up to 30 years in prison.

Why did they do this ? No idea. I hope someday we can get to know the intrahistory of all this.

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