Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain • Hacker News Board

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#361

Post by simias » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 3:38 PM UTC

narag wrote: post #130

simias wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"civil war", "genocide". Come on people, don't throw these words willy-nilly, leave that to bad news outlets. Yes, the spanish government was quite brutal in its attempt to stymie the referendum (probably unnecessarily so) but we're not on the verge of a catalan genocide in any way, shape or form. If you keep abusing words they end up losing their meaning.

Yes, the spanish government was quite brutal in its attempt to stymie the referendum That's wrong. There were a handful of injured, don't believe the propaganda. Most international media that were fooled by that lies have acknowledged this much.

Regardless of the scale and strength of the repression I'm still of the opinion that it was unwarranted. Declare the referendum to be illegal, tell lawful spanish citizens to stay home then disregard the results. Maybe prosecute the people organizing the referendum if the law allows it.

Even though the referendum was illegal it didn't create any imminent danger. Therefore I think the use of force by Madrid was disproportionate. It also effectively backfired by making the independentists look more sympathetic even though their motive is for the most part rather selfish at the core.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#362

Post by pjc50 » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 3:39 PM UTC

hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

> Catalan politicians face criminal charges and high treason and will be tried by them.

The trial and subsequent execution of Patrick Pearse et al for treason in 1916 was the event which turned Irish independence from controversial in Ireland to a virtual certainty.

Trial even without execution of the Catalan leaders is going to create martyrs for the movement, and their names will be invoked in the subsequent terrorist bombing campaign.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

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Post by Findeton » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 3:39 PM UTC

andrewla wrote: post #342

Findeton wrote: post #178

It's not true, they haven't declared independence. This is a resolution proposal, which means it's not a law and it has no legal value (I mean, not even from the point of view of a pro-independence judge/lawyer). It's a proposal asking the Catalan government to declare independence. But it's fulfilling its purpose, which is to escalate things in a political sense while maintaining the status-quo in the legal realm: i…

So I found [1] which appears to contain the actual text used in the resolution. > CONSTITUÏM la República catalana, com a Estat independent i sobirà, de dret, democràtic i social. Which Google translates as > WE CONSTITUTE THE Catalan Republic, as an independent and sovereign State, of social and democratic law. It certainly sounds like a declaration of independence. Since the very act of making the declaration is de…

It's inside a preamble/preface of what is basically a non-law proposal. If a preamble inside a law has no normative effect, a preamble in a non-law proposal (asking the Catalan government to "please" do something) has the legal effect of a letter to the Three Wise Men.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

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Post by dougmany » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 3:40 PM UTC

heavenlyblue wrote: post #257

spankalee wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does the 1000 year history have to do with anything? If the people want independence now, that's all that matters.

What about the whole of the country subsidising the more wealthy region by things like brain-drain and leanier taxation? What would happen if California were to separate from the US? Who would afford their army? What about billions invested by the whole of US in the industries there? By your logic I may just reply that "if the people want independence now - then all that matters if I have enough military power to kee…

> ? What about billions invested by the whole of US in the industries there?

I would say they got what they paid for. Satellites and computers have been delivered. Investment paid off.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

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Post by sirkneeland » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 3:40 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #318

jerf wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that sounds like a book. But despite the failure, I'd point to Brexit as an example where there was a conflict that was still broadly speaking handled in a civilized manner. If I recall correctly, the EU never said that if the UK left, they would take steps to liquidate Parliament. It was (and is!) an acrimonious debate, but still a civilized one (contrary to apparently popular belief, "nice" and "civilized" ar…

I'd cite the Scottish independence referendum as an example of how to do it with the minimum of acrimony and near-zero violence. Although we don't know what would have happened exactly if Yes had won.

It seemed pretty acrimonious and left scars that haven't healed to this day.

I mean, I grant that in the grand scheme of things (and certainly in comparison to how Spain bungled this), you are correct, the UK handled it as well as possible.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

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Post by erikpukinskis » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 3:40 PM UTC

TallGuyShort wrote: post #279

crooked-v wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mandatory voting, with real but minor punishments for not filing a ballot (but no requirement to actually vote for a candidate, to allow for cases where none of the above appeal). Of course, this will never happen with the current political structure of the US, as the Republican Party works to aggressively reduce total voter turnout everywhere it can.

How would you implement mandatory voting without doing what Republicans want to do to verify right-to-vote in the first place? Requirements to vote have been associated with racism in the past, sure, and the ideas are often stupid and pointless, but talking to foreigners, myself included, the opposition to having to show ID to vote seems stupid too.

If the law also made IDs free then I’d be ok with it. Pay to vote seems like a horrible system.

And “free if you spend hours on the phone and mailing forms back and forth to prove you’re poor” doesn’t count.

I would also need funding for sending out educational advertising in areas where there are high numbers of eligible voters without valid ID.

I don’t see Republicans making a good faith effort here though.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

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Post by ryanlol » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 3:41 PM UTC

cabaalis wrote: post #333

zeveb wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 10th Amendment reads 'The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.' The Constitution is silent on secession: it neither forbids it nor lays out procedures for it. Since the power to remove a State from the United States is not delegated to the United States, it is reserved to the respective States,…

It would seem that amendment has long been ignored. If a state votes to leave the union, it would likely be decided by a federal court as illegal, then go to Supreme Court for them to decide. The problem is that this will take too long, and things will escalate much sooner than they can review the case. For instance: If the people of the state in question refused to pay their taxes to the government they no longer re…

I think, given significant popular support, the congress would vote to allow a state to secede rather than sending in troops to intervene.

The feds would leave this to the politicians to sort out, instead of attempting to arrest the population of an entire state.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

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Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 3:41 PM UTC

Ajedi32 wrote: post #305

Findeton wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a declaration of independence, approved in a resolution proposal, which means it's a petition to the Catalan government, not a law or anything like that. Which means it hasn't changed the legal body at all. The Catalan government could also ignore the petition, as it's not a binding mandate, just a petition. My sources? I am Spanish and I have friends who are lawyers. EDIT: You mention the Catalan Gov's twitter.…

I'm confused. A petition to the Catalan government, by the Catalan parliament? They're petitioning themselves?

“government” here seems to mean roughly what, in the American system, would be called the “administration” or “executive branch”.

From the procedural descriptions, this looks less like what Americans would think of as a “request” or “petition” than passing a bill and sending it for the assent of the executive (which might be given or withheld), as is the typical mode of legislation in the US system (both at the federal level and in the states.)

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

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Post by ufmace » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 3:41 PM UTC

fusiongyro wrote: post #272

smcl wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice catch 22 - between (2) and (8). You are allowed to secede if you vote for it ... but you're not allowed to vote to secede.

Is there a legal way for US states to secede?

It's not really defined. Presumably if the US Congress approved, it could happen, but nobody really knows for sure.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

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Post by MistahKoala » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 3:42 PM UTC

pfortuny wrote: post #325

MistahKoala wrote: post #280

'Declares independence' or 'votes to declare independence'? The article offers two conflicting explanations of what happened. Does anybody know?

Nobody knows because they have never expressed their intention clearly (the most clear statement was the president of the local government saying "I declare the independence but suspend it for the moment"). So there it goes.

Well, quite - ambiguity all the way, so far. That should be reflected in the coverage, though. It wouldn't be the first time major news organisations have declared Catalonian independence.