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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#321

Post by narag »

antaviana wrote: post #154

It's been a bit of bad luck what happened. On the Spanish side, the party at the Government did not have enough votes to freely apply their own policies. By helping provoke a polarizing crisis, they hugely improve their chances for an absolute majority to improve their power position should there be an election in Spain. Had they negotiated with Catalan Government, their future chances for a huge win would be a lot l…

In short, both parties ruling on both sides believe that they benefit greatly from confrontation

No, that's wrong. The reason we have the current clusterf* in place has been the conflict-avoiding actitude of 40 years of spanish governments.

We have a proportional voting systems and regional parties have been the "hinge", the small parties that helped ruling parties to reach absolute majority, in national parliament. This allowed them to get away with actually enjoying unfair privileges over the rest of the country and advancing the regionalist agenda.

Did you know you can't have your children study in Spanish in Spain? Even with several Supreme Court and "supremer" Tribunal Constitutional rulings backing you. Regional government refused to apply the sentences and national government did nothing to force their hands. Public schools have been instrumental to what we have today in the streets. I'm surprised that half the population has resisted 40 years of brainwash, makes me keep my faith in Humanity.

If the article 155 had been applied months, years ago, when the first farce of referendum took place, or even a week before the vote simulation, we had not needed to see the bs that we see in the news everyday.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#322

Post by felipeko »

alvatar wrote: post #264
felipeko wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Spain gets to keep Catalonia as a colony because it is the one with power to make the rules?

A colony of Spain? What is that based on?

The definition of the word colony

From google:

> a country or area under the full or partial political control of another country, typically a distant one, and occupied by settlers from that country.

From wikipedia:

> In politics and history, a colony is a territory under the immediate political control of a state, distinct from the home territory of the sovereign.

If Spain asserts itself as the ruler of Catalonia, without the will of the Catalans, it appears to me that the word is very apt.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#323

Post by Findeton »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #305
Findeton wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a declaration of independence, approved in a resolution proposal, which means it's a petition to the Catalan government, not a law or anything like that. Which means it hasn't changed the legal body at all. The Catalan government could also ignore the petition, as it's not a binding mandate, just a petition. My sources? I am Spanish and I have friends who are lawyers. EDIT: You mention the Catalan Gov's twitter.…

I'm confused. A petition to the Catalan government, by the Catalan parliament? They're petitioning themselves?

The parliament and the government are distinct bodies. The parliament are the lawmakers, they are directly elected, and it includes the opposition. The Catalan Gov is not directly elected: it's elected by the parliament, and they don't make laws, they apply them.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#324

Post by nextos »

ctdonath wrote: post #300
platz wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then, what tactics does civilization require in order to hold together?

The US constitution has worked quite well (despite our penchant for drama) for a couple centuries. Oversimplified: recognize states as semi-autonomous, localize governance as much as possible, balance voting power to prevent "tyranny of the majority", emphasize individual rights & liberty. Too much of bossing around others does not end well.

Catalonia is as semi-autonomous as Texas right now.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#325

Post by pfortuny »

MistahKoala wrote: post #280

'Declares independence' or 'votes to declare independence'? The article offers two conflicting explanations of what happened. Does anybody know?

Nobody knows because they have never expressed their intention clearly (the most clear statement was the president of the local government saying "I declare the independence but suspend it for the moment"). So there it goes.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#326

Post by notyourday »

celticninja wrote: post #316
notyourday wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You dont need outside support to declare independence, it is of no concern to those in Catalan what the US or anyone else thinks. Good luck without being self-sufficient.

based on the figures, that they contribute 20% to spains GDP and get back 14% it would seem that they are on their way to being self sufficient

By the same logic NYC can be independent of the NYS and the rest of the United States, which is ridiculous considering that it won't be able to withstand a week without food and fuel supplies from outside the five boroughs.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#327

Post by smcl »

narag wrote: post #116
Ygg2 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The new reality is that Spain is probably going bankrupt.

Nonsense. Most of the big companies have left Catalonia last month. Half of Catalonia population doesn't want independence. Rule of law will be restored in a few weeks and all the thugs that have promoted this idiocy will be jailed. Edit: to the person responding, you only see what you want to see. Police acted according to judiciary orders and there were no deaths and just a handful of injured people. Try to resist…

Listen to yourself! So I didn’t see anyone getting beat up by the police? But if I DID see that then it was OK because they were ordered to?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#328

Post by throwawayjava »

flamedoge wrote: post #232
TallGuyShort wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The illegality of their vote is supported by the judicial system, not political. However it came about, that's a really political situation to be in. It sounds to me like Spain has set up a legal framework in which war is the only way to leave a democracy. I'm not familiar enough with Catalonia's motive's here to judge their decision, but that's a shitty situation in which to make that decision. And to be clear, I…

How to solve voter turnout? free donuts?

I think your idea is much better than everything else's, sadly. Yes, some form of tax return bonus would probably be the most effective mechanism.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#329

Post by xtreme »

heavenlyblue wrote: post #257
spankalee wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does the 1000 year history have to do with anything? If the people want independence now, that's all that matters.

What about the whole of the country subsidising the more wealthy region by things like brain-drain and leanier taxation? What would happen if California were to separate from the US? Who would afford their army? What about billions invested by the whole of US in the industries there? By your logic I may just reply that "if the people want independence now - then all that matters if I have enough military power to kee…

> all that matters if I have enough military power to keep them in the saddle

That's pretty much how most declarations of independence have worked historically. But even if you have enough military power, how much blood are you willing to shed if a full blown civil war breaks out? If there are civilian deaths, it's likely that there would be condemnation and support for the separatists from the international community. What matters is how badly people want their independence and how far they are willing to go for it.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#330

Post by liberte82 »

marcosscriven wrote: post #203
PeachPlum wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plan was laid out clearly. The question asked of the electorate was also clear. February 2016 The process for withdrawing from the European Union Presented to Parliament by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs by Command of Her Majesty https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm... 2.1 The result of the referendum on the UK’s membership of the European Union will be final.…

I don’t think it’s valid to claim the non voters in an aggregate 65%. Otherwise you could say 68% of the country didn’t vote to leave. Which presumably means it was a stronger position. Edit - I see you removed that claim.

68% also didn't vote to stay. It always gets silly when you try to make arguments about vote percentages based on the entire population because they always work completely in reverse as well.
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