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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#311

Post by pjc50 »

bad_user wrote: post #223
jerf wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You need to read history to understand the situation." That is true if we want to analyze the question of whether or not Catalan "should" be independent from Spain, a question so murky and shot through with political philosophy, theory, and pragmatics that even two sides that stipulate all the same facts can come to different conclusions. But for what johnnyfaehell was really getting at, which is a tactical and/or s…

If you'll look at our history, there is no separation that happened peacefully. Historically speaking, an independence declaration is equivalent to a declaration of war. And Catalonia will receive no international support because all countries have regions with minorities that wished for independence at some point — well, except maybe from Russia, or other countries that want instability in the region.

Who is "our" here? Have we forgotten Czechslovakia?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#312

Post by liberte82 »

cavanasm wrote: post #177
guiomie wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are all valid points. But why didn't Spain support a referendum like Canada supported Quebec twice and the UK with Scotland? Like the OP said, this could all have been stopped if Spain had supported the vote and campaigned for the no. How could Catalonia get a 'legal' vote?

I'm under the impression the only way an independence vote could be legal is if the Spanish Constitution was changed to allow that. The current constitution declares Spain "indivisible", with no more specific details. That would seem to pretty clearly exclude any possibility of a part of Spain legally separating from Spain. The UK's legal system is a little slipperier. UK doesn't have a hard and fast Constitution. If…

It's interesting how this stems from a cultural difference. In very general terms, the UK is based on common law, in which we decide the truth as we go, based on the decisions of parliament and court cases. Spain and France are based on civil law, which are much more rigid and top-down, but also more clearly defined. In civil law, if it's not explicitly declared illegal, you can do it. In common law, it's a little murkier. This even seeps into the language (The French say they "have the right" to do something, the English say they are "allowed" - active vs. passive).

Of course there is great overlap between the two in reality, but at their core the two legal systems have different philosophies. Hence why you end up with situations where the UK may be more flexible about things like separation.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#313

Post by morsch »

TallGuyShort wrote: post #188
hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

>> The illegality of their vote is supported by the judicial system, not political. However it came about, that's a really political situation to be in. It sounds to me like Spain has set up a legal framework in which war is the only way to leave a democracy. I'm not familiar enough with Catalonia's motive's here to judge their decision, but that's a shitty situation in which to make that decision. And to be clear, I…

The Catalan election was declared illegal before it started, with fairly heavy handed measures taken by the central government.

Whether you think that's reasonable or not, it's not really comparable to low turnouts in general elections.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#314

Post by Findeton »

andrewla wrote: post #301
Findeton wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a declaration of independence, approved in a resolution proposal, which means it's a petition to the Catalan government, not a law or anything like that. Which means it hasn't changed the legal body at all. The Catalan government could also ignore the petition, as it's not a binding mandate, just a petition. My sources? I am Spanish and I have friends who are lawyers. EDIT: You mention the Catalan Gov's twitter.…

I'm unclear on who exactly you're saying the players are here. I though that this vote was undertaken by the Catalan Government -- namely, the parliament. Are these distinct organizations? Who, exactly, are you saying the Catalan Parliament is petitioning?

The Catalan Parliament and the Catalan Government are very distinct bodies. The Catalan Parliament is just like congress in the US: it also includes representatives of the opposition. They are the lawmakers. The Catalan Gov is the body that applies laws and it includes no member from the opposition.

Yes, the Catalan Parliament is petitioning. At least in the formal legal realm.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#316

Post by celticninja »

notyourday wrote: post #239
celticninja wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You dont need outside support to declare independence, it is of no concern to those in Catalan what the US or anyone else thinks. The best course of action for the Catalan parliament would have been to call an election and then if they won it with a decent majority used that as their mandate to declare independence. As it is they dont have a solid mandate so it is easier for Spain and the EU to ignore them, however a…

> You dont need outside support to declare independence, it is of no concern to those in Catalan what the US or anyone else thinks. Good luck without being self-sufficient.

based on the figures, that they contribute 20% to spains GDP and get back 14% it would seem that they are on their way to being self sufficient

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#317

Post by babuskov »

celticninja wrote: post #112
whorleater wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. Did they? The EU doesn't support Catalan independence, the US doesn't support the movement, the Catalan independence has 0 backing from any outside source, while most countries see this as an internal affair within Spain. Madrid ev…

You dont need outside support to declare independence, it is of no concern to those in Catalan what the US or anyone else thinks. The best course of action for the Catalan parliament would have been to call an election and then if they won it with a decent majority used that as their mandate to declare independence. As it is they dont have a solid mandate so it is easier for Spain and the EU to ignore them, however a…

> You dont need outside support to declare independence

You don't. But you do need it for anyone in the world to accept is as a fact. A region like that cannot isolate itself from the rest of the world.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#318

Post by pjc50 »

jerf wrote: post #259
platz wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then, what tactics does civilization require in order to hold together?

Well, that sounds like a book. But despite the failure, I'd point to Brexit as an example where there was a conflict that was still broadly speaking handled in a civilized manner. If I recall correctly, the EU never said that if the UK left, they would take steps to liquidate Parliament. It was (and is!) an acrimonious debate, but still a civilized one (contrary to apparently popular belief, "nice" and "civilized" ar…

I'd cite the Scottish independence referendum as an example of how to do it with the minimum of acrimony and near-zero violence. Although we don't know what would have happened exactly if Yes had won.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#319

Post by philipov »

fusiongyro wrote: post #272
smcl wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice catch 22 - between (2) and (8). You are allowed to secede if you vote for it ... but you're not allowed to vote to secede.

Is there a legal way for US states to secede?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_the_United_States

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#320

Post by _Tev »

smcl wrote: post #284
narag wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last election had a majority of votes to parties that didn't proposed independence, that's a hard fact, not an opinion. And as you will soon learn, there is no need to settle that question, it was settled long ago.

Carefully worded answer. To those who might take narag's words at face value, they're probably referring the 2014 referendum where voters were asked "do you want to Catalonia to be a state" and "and if so, do you want it to be independent". The result was 80% of the results were "yes" for both but the turnout was low (40-ish percent). I don't think that is exactly decisive for either side, but to claim it as a win fo…

If you want to be independent you go and vote. If you do not care you stay home. Such low turnout seems like a win for "no" camp, because people of Catalonia apparently do not care about independence from Spain.
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