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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#221

Post by jayess »

simion314 wrote: post #46
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

But the referendum was invalid because of the constitution, you can't ignore the constitution because you want, you need to change the constitution.

Lots of things can be morally right but also be illegal.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#222

Post by jayess »

stevoski wrote: post #175
garply wrote: post #148

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how this has affected the economy and real estate market in Barcelona?

So far it is life as usual here. Since October 1st, 2017, more than 800 companies have moved their official address to outside of Catalunya. They tend to be larger firms. To be fair, a few have moved TO Catalunya during that same period. Tourism bookings are down 20% on this time last year. Tourism is a significant part of the Catalan economy. Real estate - too soo to tell. I think real estate prices probably trail e…

Maybe it's time to come visit. :)

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#223

Post by bad_user »

jerf wrote: post #172
hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

"You need to read history to understand the situation." That is true if we want to analyze the question of whether or not Catalan "should" be independent from Spain, a question so murky and shot through with political philosophy, theory, and pragmatics that even two sides that stipulate all the same facts can come to different conclusions. But for what johnnyfaehell was really getting at, which is a tactical and/or s…

If you'll look at our history, there is no separation that happened peacefully.

Historically speaking, an independence declaration is equivalent to a declaration of war.

And Catalonia will receive no international support because all countries have regions with minorities that wished for independence at some point — well, except maybe from Russia, or other countries that want instability in the region.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#224

Post by rayiner »

justanton wrote: post #169
rayiner wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that’s great. People have a right to self determination. Not just who they vote for, but who votes with them. Without it democracy is a sham.

I wonder what’s your take on Crimea and Russia in this case.

If an identifiable geographic region wants to secede, and there is sufficient support among the public, it should be able to do so. Crimea I think falls into that group: 93% voting in favor of joining Russia with 83% turnout.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#225

Post by felipeko »

narag wrote: post #104
barrkel wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Referendums are a way of converting democratic mandates into decisions; but the democratic mandate doesn't go away just because the referendum isn't valid. More than 50% (70 of 135) of the democratically elected local parliament voted for independence too.

The referendum was not just illegal, it was clearly rigged. The local parliament lack the power the vote for independence, that's just a farce.

So Spain gets to keep Catalonia as a colony because it is the one with power to make the rules?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#226

Post by smcl »

joaomval wrote: post #165
hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

How many countries got independent legally?

This is an excellent point I've struggled to put across. Furthermore people act like laws are set in stone and are always objectively Good. "It is illegal" is in some cases not a good argument against something.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#227

Post by k__ »

ensignavenger wrote: post #157
jannes wrote: post #64

The senate in Madrid just voted to trigger article 155 of the Spanish constitution, which allows them to cancel the regional government. That should stop tax money flowing... I could only find an article in Spanish as it only happened a few minutes ago: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=es&tl=en&u=http... Edit: Looks like the BBC has updated the article to include this now.

If they just declared independence, why would they expect tax money from the government they just separated from?

Also, aren't they richer than the rest of Spain and don't need their money?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#228

Post by icebraining »

agumonkey wrote: post #155
icebraining wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How else should they have done it?

What about: - no threats to non pro-spain - more time before actual vote so people had time to actually come a rushed vote is bad

- Which threats has the Catalonian government issued?

- Sure, but it's kinda hard to have an orderly vote when you have the National Guard descending on you and trying to stop it.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#229

Post by intended »

fiblye wrote: post #139
vilmosi wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won The UK government thought like you. It allowed the people to vote for Brexit, thinking it would never pass. And here we are today.

Yeah, what a disaster that was. Time to take a step back and reconsider this whole "democracy" sham for what it is. All it does is let the clowns run the circus. And once commoners are voting, who knows what else they'll be doing.

Or you know - attribute malice and responsibility to the people spreading fallacies and fanning the flames of discontent for political gain?

Matter of fact this should be read as a win for direct democracy and responsibility- you believe that you can get away with your rhetoric ? Well sucks to be you. People liked what you are selling.

I think this calls for stronger links between claims and actions. A stronger more automatic contract between the people voting and the people making the claims.

I think brexit was a monumentally sad moment, the cross roads between the old world and the new connected world. The resulting decisions based on emotions and a super biased media system results in brexit.

The media helps spread junk for political points and as revenue, and the new political class believes that they can get away with it. A belief bubble that requires treatment - via holding people to task for the words they used.

Bah. Who am I kidding. If it was so easy - it would have been done already

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#230

Post by ben_w »

ensignavenger wrote: post #157
jannes wrote: post #64

The senate in Madrid just voted to trigger article 155 of the Spanish constitution, which allows them to cancel the regional government. That should stop tax money flowing... I could only find an article in Spanish as it only happened a few minutes ago: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=es&tl=en&u=http... Edit: Looks like the BBC has updated the article to include this now.

If they just declared independence, why would they expect tax money from the government they just separated from?

The cynic in me says “because humans are like that”. For example, one elected UKIP official expected the EU to pay for a road in the UK after brexit.

Wouldn’t be surprised if either Spain or Catalonia now acts confused when someone puts an armed customs inspector on the border roads between them.

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