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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#171

Post by gsnedders »

eumenides1 wrote: post #144
chrisbrowning wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That probably would have been the better move as far as "optics" are concerned, but the Spanish constitution states that this kind of referendum is illegal. In any case -- I think the ruling party in Spain wanted this to flare up so they could consolidate political support during the next election, since most of Spain is adamantly opposed to Catalan independence.

As a Canadian kid, i never understood why they would let Quebec go through with a referendum. Seems insane to just "divorce" a country (for lack of better words). As i grew up, i thought it was pretty progressive to allow it. As an adult, it seems like the only logical tactical option. A lot of people will claim that it isn't legal. They will be right. But their constitution wasn't written with modern times in mind.…

> But their constitution wasn't written with modern times in mind.

1978 really wasn't that long ago. I'd call 1978 modern times!

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#172

Post by jerf »

hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

"You need to read history to understand the situation."

That is true if we want to analyze the question of whether or not Catalan "should" be independent from Spain, a question so murky and shot through with political philosophy, theory, and pragmatics that even two sides that stipulate all the same facts can come to different conclusions.

But for what johnnyfaehell was really getting at, which is a tactical and/or strategic analysis of the effectiveness of the moves the various sides have been making, we don't really need all that, we just need an understanding of human nature, with at best some slight elaborations for the slight deviations in local conditions.

I personally have no great opinion about whether Catalan should or should not be independent. Distinctly from that, though, it is fair to observe that Spain has handled this quite badly. While there is probably no solution in which they completely smooth things over, they have certainly taken multiple moves that are very clearly the simple, intuitive things that our genetically-imposed tribal political sense tells us to take when people challenge our rule, and which work (to some degree) in a tribal context of 100-ish people [1], but which at this scale were basically guaranteed to massively inflame the situation.

[1]: Albeit in a way that many people here would probably find generally unjust. The Big Man in the Tribe basically just telling a couple of rabble-rousers to shut up, and if necessary, getting some of his supporters to rough them up a bit to remind them who is in charge, "works", but a lot of us would find that fairly distasteful, because while our genetics tell us to do that, civilization requires other tactics in order to hold together. Scaling up that Big Man's action to a region breaks in multiple ways; for instance, if Catalan perceives itself as a separate tribe, then the "rough them up a bit" phase doesn't register as an internal tribe spat with our genetically-programmed politics, but warfare between two tribes, and that prompts a radically different response.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#173

Post by fixermark »

celticninja wrote: post #112
whorleater wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. Did they? The EU doesn't support Catalan independence, the US doesn't support the movement, the Catalan independence has 0 backing from any outside source, while most countries see this as an internal affair within Spain. Madrid ev…

You dont need outside support to declare independence, it is of no concern to those in Catalan what the US or anyone else thinks. The best course of action for the Catalan parliament would have been to call an election and then if they won it with a decent majority used that as their mandate to declare independence. As it is they dont have a solid mandate so it is easier for Spain and the EU to ignore them, however a…

"You don't need outside support to declare independence" is a philosophically pleasing but politically unsound idea. It's the sort of thing that leads to martyred revolutionaries instead of redrawn boundaries on a map.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#174

Post by SAI_Peregrinus »

alvatar wrote: post #38
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

I keep reading this in international media. The Spanish government didn't declare the referendum illegal. It was the top court, which is independent from the government. The government ensures that the law is applied once that is decided. That said, I think Spain should have held a referendum (by changing the constitution). Everything would have been much easier.

In the US "the government" typically applies to either all three branches (courts, legislature, executive) or occasionally to the latter two only. The latter definition is typically only used in the case of a lawsuit involving the state. This is in contrast to parliamentary systems where the government is formed of the dominant political party or coalition in parliament, and also gets to act as the executive branch. The US almost always uses the first definition (all 3 branches are government), parliamentary systems almost always use the second (courts aren't government).

In the first (more common) US-style sense, the government certainly did declare the referendum illegal.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#175

Post by stevoski »

garply wrote: post #148

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how this has affected the economy and real estate market in Barcelona?

So far it is life as usual here.

Since October 1st, 2017, more than 800 companies have moved their official address to outside of Catalunya. They tend to be larger firms. To be fair, a few have moved TO Catalunya during that same period.

Tourism bookings are down 20% on this time last year. Tourism is a significant part of the Catalan economy.

Real estate - too soo to tell. I think real estate prices probably trail events by some months.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#176

Post by pbhjpbhj »

barrkel wrote: post #111
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mistake, I thought demos was the people not the "voters". /s Not voting in an illegal ballot seems reasonable. The rule of law is a cornerstone of democracy as too are free and fair elections.

And self-determination is the cornerstone of international rights, up there in Article I of the Charter of the UN. For me, 70 out of 135 elected representatives is a more democratic mandate than the referendum. Not a fan of referendums.

Cornerstone? Isn't recognition of nation states the cornerstone?

Art 1.2 talks of maintaining peace amongst the nation's through respect for "equal rights and self-determination of peoples". To me that puts self-determination below democratic process, reversing them would not respect equal rights.

http://www.un.org/en/sections/un-charter/chapter-i/index.htm...

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#177

Post by cavanasm »

guiomie wrote: post #137
hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

Those are all valid points. But why didn't Spain support a referendum like Canada supported Quebec twice and the UK with Scotland? Like the OP said, this could all have been stopped if Spain had supported the vote and campaigned for the no. How could Catalonia get a 'legal' vote?

I'm under the impression the only way an independence vote could be legal is if the Spanish Constitution was changed to allow that. The current constitution declares Spain "indivisible", with no more specific details. That would seem to pretty clearly exclude any possibility of a part of Spain legally separating from Spain. The UK's legal system is a little slipperier. UK doesn't have a hard and fast Constitution. If Parliament allows something, it's basically legal (less hard checks on legislative power than your typical constitution).

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#178

Post by Findeton »

It's not true, they haven't declared independence. This is a resolution proposal, which means it's not a law and it has no legal value (I mean, not even from the point of view of a pro-independence judge/lawyer). It's a proposal asking the Catalan government to declare independence.

But it's fulfilling its purpose, which is to escalate things in a political sense while maintaining the status-quo in the legal realm: it's a provocation to the Spanish government, seeking an over-reaction from the Spanish government, with the aim to maintain the moral victory over Spain in the matter of independence.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#179

Post by marcosscriven »

frobozz wrote: post #99
marcosscriven wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can’t really claim a mandate for leaving when those who wanted to stay boycotted the vote. That said, it would have been much less divisive if a proper referendum had been sanctioned.

They have a better mandate than UK leaving the EU: 92% pro, from a 43% turnout = 39.56% of the electorate in favour of Catalan independence. Compare to 52% of 72% = 37.44% of the electorate in favour of Brexit.

I see I have been down voted.

As someone born in Barcelona, with dual Spanish/British nationality, all I can say with certainty is that I’m deeply saddened to lose not one, but possibly now two connections to my European neighbours.

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