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Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

#31

Post by bl4ckm0r3 »

joeminichino wrote: post #28
bl4ckm0r3 wrote: post #13

Lombardy voted to have more control regarding immigration and safety, Veneto to change their taxes and have more control in the "residuo fiscale" (what's left of taxes after all the administration costs has been covered). Neither is allowed by the concept of regional autonomy in Italy. Unfortunately, just like any other "independence" request these days, it's just a move to avoid helping poorer states and drawing a t…

Honestly - how long more can Lombardy help the South. The freaking dogs on the street know about the Cassa Del Mezzogiorno. My father emigrated from Naples in the 60s and found a job in Lombardy, where he met my (Lombard) mother. I emigrated from Lombardy to Ireland. Not advocating emigration at all costs, but certainly governments of the last 50 years have advocated centralization and unfair redistribution of wealth…

organised crime is everywhere in italy, there is a long going conversation to understand the "south situation" in italy, it has historical roots, lack of investments and political corruption on a national level that put investments into the hands of the local mafias.

Re: Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

#32

Post by rdtsc »

gfiorav wrote: post #3

It’s just funny how the modern nationalist and xenofobe believe they’re “super cool and progressive”. Let’s never forget the horrors of a disassembled Europe, filled with nationalists and xenofobes.

> Let’s never forget the horrors of a disassembled Europe ...

Quite the opposite, let's never forget the horrors of attempted unification of desperate nationalities of Europe under large reichs, socialist utopias, or just the good 'ol imperial expansion.

> It’s just funny how the modern nationalist and xenofobe believe they’re “super cool and progressive”.

Something tells me people voting for these issues, didn't really care about being looking "super cool" but had other, slightly more nuanced concerns.

Also, if the goal is to convince any of them to abandon their positions, mocking them and calling them "xenophobes" will have the exact opposite effect.

Re: Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

#33

Post by zakk »

vampolo wrote: post #29
zakk wrote: post #8

Venetian here, let me state a few facts about this: 1) The referendum in Veneto was supported by the Venetian section of all major parties, across all the political spectrum. 2) In Italy five regions have a far greater degree of autonomy for historical reasons. Many Comuni (city councils) voted to leave Veneto to join nearby Trentino Alto-Adige just for this far greater autonomy. The proponents of the referendum woul…

It might feel empowering demanding taxes to be spent in the richer areas instead of helping poorer areas: Zaia, Governor of Veneto and member of the anti-Europe, anti-Euro, anti-italian nation Lega Nord party, promoted the referendum demanding that "taxes in Veneto should stay here, not helping Sicily". It probably is, at first. But in an economy of different parties, who produces more needs some buyers to keep growi…

> It is in the interest of the richest areas to help the poorest.

Yes, however one still needs to decide to which extent. Italy helps the poorest areas much more than Germany or the US do. Would a federal model like Germany work better?

That's why I said that redistribution is OK in principle, but many feel that in Italy there's just too much of it.

> On the historical side it has been confirmed that 2/3 of the gold resources in Italy came from Regno delle due Sicilie

Many wrongs were commited in that age, many of which targeted the North, as well.

However, if you sum all the subsidies the South has been granted through the years (one among many: Cassa per il Mezzogiorno) that would easily offset those gold resources.

Edit: actually is more, Cassa per il Mezzogiorno was given about 140 billions, while 2/3 of Italy's gold resources are worth about 100 billions. One should also keep in mind that Cassa per il Mezzogiorno was active only between 1950 and 1984, and many other subsidies for the South were present before, during and after.

Re: Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

#34

Post by noisymemories »

joeminichino wrote: post #28
bl4ckm0r3 wrote: post #13

Lombardy voted to have more control regarding immigration and safety, Veneto to change their taxes and have more control in the "residuo fiscale" (what's left of taxes after all the administration costs has been covered). Neither is allowed by the concept of regional autonomy in Italy. Unfortunately, just like any other "independence" request these days, it's just a move to avoid helping poorer states and drawing a t…

Honestly - how long more can Lombardy help the South. The freaking dogs on the street know about the Cassa Del Mezzogiorno. My father emigrated from Naples in the 60s and found a job in Lombardy, where he met my (Lombard) mother. I emigrated from Lombardy to Ireland. Not advocating emigration at all costs, but certainly governments of the last 50 years have advocated centralization and unfair redistribution of wealth…

It's not reductive at all. It's pretty much confirmed that most of the "Cassa del Mezzogiorno" money for Sicily went straight to Cosa Nostra.

Re: Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

#35

Post by joeminichino »

bl4ckm0r3 wrote: post #31
joeminichino wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly - how long more can Lombardy help the South. The freaking dogs on the street know about the Cassa Del Mezzogiorno. My father emigrated from Naples in the 60s and found a job in Lombardy, where he met my (Lombard) mother. I emigrated from Lombardy to Ireland. Not advocating emigration at all costs, but certainly governments of the last 50 years have advocated centralization and unfair redistribution of wealth…

organised crime is everywhere in italy, there is a long going conversation to understand the "south situation" in italy, it has historical roots, lack of investments and political corruption on a national level that put investments into the hands of the local mafias.

Falcone (a man who knew a thing or 50 about organized crime) said that once you have taken money out of the hands of organized crime they are dead. Freeze accounts, suspend influx, cut the pipe. Without subventions to the south, the Mafia has nowhere to pick that money up.

Re: Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

#36

Post by noisymemories »

joeminichino wrote: post #35
bl4ckm0r3 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

organised crime is everywhere in italy, there is a long going conversation to understand the "south situation" in italy, it has historical roots, lack of investments and political corruption on a national level that put investments into the hands of the local mafias.

Falcone (a man who knew a thing or 50 about organized crime) said that once you have taken money out of the hands of organized crime they are dead. Freeze accounts, suspend influx, cut the pipe. Without subventions to the south, the Mafia has nowhere to pick that money up.

And this is the reason why the referendum will go basically nowhere, by the way.

Re: Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

#37

Post by joeminichino »

noisymemories wrote: post #36
joeminichino wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Falcone (a man who knew a thing or 50 about organized crime) said that once you have taken money out of the hands of organized crime they are dead. Freeze accounts, suspend influx, cut the pipe. Without subventions to the south, the Mafia has nowhere to pick that money up.

And this is the reason why the referendum will go basically nowhere, by the way.

can you elaborate?

Re: Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

#38

Post by mrighele »

zakk wrote: post #33
vampolo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might feel empowering demanding taxes to be spent in the richer areas instead of helping poorer areas: Zaia, Governor of Veneto and member of the anti-Europe, anti-Euro, anti-italian nation Lega Nord party, promoted the referendum demanding that "taxes in Veneto should stay here, not helping Sicily". It probably is, at first. But in an economy of different parties, who produces more needs some buyers to keep growi…

> It is in the interest of the richest areas to help the poorest. Yes, however one still needs to decide to which extent. Italy helps the poorest areas much more than Germany or the US do. Would a federal model like Germany work better? That's why I said that redistribution is OK in principle, but many feel that in Italy there's just too much of it. > On the historical side it has been confirmed that 2/3 of the gold…

> That's why I said that redistribution is OK in principle, but many feel that in Italy there's just too much of it.

While the amount is huge, that is not event the biggest issue. What people resent is _how_ that money is spent: public construction project meant mostly to funnel money to organized crime and companies of relatives of politicians; covering the bizarre expenses of the politicians; and the never ending legion of public employees that got a job in exchange of votes (but get paid without working much or at all). If you add the fact that southern Italy is where most of tax evasion and health-related fraud occurs, the feeling for many is not that they are paying to help the poorer, but that they are sweating so that others can live a comfortable life.

While it is not a black-white situation (there are also such issues in the North, and hard working people in the South), the difference is notable.

Re: Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

#39

Post by away2017throw »

mrweasel wrote: post #14

It fascinating that while our politicians seek ever closer EU integration, the public seems to want more local government.

I think letting in a few million of net consuming random people from outside of EU played its part.

Re: Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

#40

Post by mk89 »

bl4ckm0r3 wrote: post #27
zakk wrote: post #8

Venetian here, let me state a few facts about this: 1) The referendum in Veneto was supported by the Venetian section of all major parties, across all the political spectrum. 2) In Italy five regions have a far greater degree of autonomy for historical reasons. Many Comuni (city councils) voted to leave Veneto to join nearby Trentino Alto-Adige just for this far greater autonomy. The proponents of the referendum woul…

1) Of course 2) Autonomy doesn't allow the type of independence you are looking for 3) It is very much, and for different reasons, but if your problem is redistribution of wealth on a national level, but not on a local it just means that you feel that southern Italy isn't Italy as much as Veneto is. Which isn't really a great thing in 2017 4) Rome and Naples have longer and definitely more impactful histories. we sho…

The reference to "la serenissima" is simply ludicrous, yet I see more and more often such things (in other countries as well).

When people are unhappy with the present (for any possible reason, like being "just average", which is not necessarily a bad thing, among one of them), they look back to the past, to some "glorious times".

However, they only look at the most successful moment[s], they never wonder how things built up, how they got lost, etc. It's much easier, because this way you can blame it on someone else, instead of rolling up your sleeves and work to create a (more) decent environment.

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