11–20 of 43 posts
It’s just funny how the modern nationalist and xenofobe believe they’re “super cool and progressive”. Let’s never forget the horrors of a disassembled Europe, filled with nationalists and xenofobes.
You are absolutely wrong. The referendum was supported by the Venetian sections of all major parties, including PD (Partito Democratico, Italian main centre-left party).
Umm; did they just contradict themselves? "We remain inside the Italian nation with more autonomy while Catalonia wants to become the 29th state of the European Union. We, no. Not for now." - So, they don't want to be seen like Catalonia, yet they say "Not for now" meaning they must be seen as such. I think the whole theory of giving certain regions extra autonomy while expecting that region to forever be part of the…
As far as I see it, they need the threat of independence so that they aren't ignored. "we aren't looking at it now, but if you don't consider our tax proposal, we'll have no choice but to look at independance more seriously"
In Lombardy it's about a list of 23 special topics, which the Constitution says are legislated by both State and regions. The Constitution also says that regions can agree with the central government on getting exclusive legislation on some or all of these topics. There was no need even to have a referendum to start the process. And there is no money on the table, but the president of the region kept mentioning "30 billion euros" which reminds me of the NHS and the British referendum. Not coincidentally, the president is running for reelection in 6 months.
In Veneto the question was simply "would you like more autonomy" without saying what and how. After voting, the president said it's about the 23 topics plus keeping tax money in Veneto. The latter however would require amending the Constitution, which in turn requires either a 2/3 supermajority in both houses, or a simple majority plus a referendum across all of Italy. It's just not going to happen. Constitutional changes have happened in the past, through either a supermajority or a referendum, but this one has no choice of passing. Regardless, a referendum was unnecessary there too.
Both referendums were a huge waste of money, basically amounting to campaigning with public money. They were a farce just like the one in Catalunya, but they were both completely legal and independence from Italy is not on the table anywhere, with the exception of a few nutjobs (equally subdivided among both rich and poor regions).
Addendum: Lombardy played with electronic voting; votes from the opposition were needed to do the referendum, because according to the regional statute referendums need a supermajority, and one opposition party agreed to vote on the condition that voting would be electronic. The president kept boasting about how we would have known the results five minutes after closing the ballot (it takes about three hours to do manual counting), yet 10 hours after we do not even know precisely how many people have voted.
Venetian here, let me state a few facts about this: 1) The referendum in Veneto was supported by the Venetian section of all major parties, across all the political spectrum. 2) In Italy five regions have a far greater degree of autonomy for historical reasons. Many Comuni (city councils) voted to leave Veneto to join nearby Trentino Alto-Adige just for this far greater autonomy. The proponents of the referendum woul…
(More remarks here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15531255 - disclaimer, I chose not to vote)
It’s just funny how the modern nationalist and xenofobe believe they’re “super cool and progressive”. Let’s never forget the horrors of a disassembled Europe, filled with nationalists and xenofobes.
It fascinating that while our politicians seek ever closer EU integration, the public seems to want more local government.
Venetian here, let me state a few facts about this: 1) The referendum in Veneto was supported by the Venetian section of all major parties, across all the political spectrum. 2) In Italy five regions have a far greater degree of autonomy for historical reasons. Many Comuni (city councils) voted to leave Veneto to join nearby Trentino Alto-Adige just for this far greater autonomy. The proponents of the referendum woul…
Do you also acknowledge that such redistribution could not happen without a constitutional reform? (More remarks here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15531255 - disclaimer, I chose not to vote)
However, given that five Regions essentially don't engage in such redistribution due to their special status, and given that it is a widespread opinion that this special status is just for historical reasons -- making very little sense today -- I think that a constitutional reform may be on the table soon.
The Veneto referendum is a good demonstration that these issues have widespread support from all the political spectrum.
It’s just funny how the modern nationalist and xenofobe believe they’re “super cool and progressive”. Let’s never forget the horrors of a disassembled Europe, filled with nationalists and xenofobes.
We had the former with asian and hellenistic kingdoms, Rome, etc, all the way to the 19th century.
>Let’s never forget the horrors of a disassembled Europe, filled with nationalists and xenofobes
You might only remember WWI and WWII, but Europe was shedding blood in wars for near 1000 years, for the most part because of a lack of nation states -- kingdoms, empires and feudal overlords fought for control, while masses fought to secede and establish free of control nation states that they could govern according to their preferences. That's how the modern democracies were established.
As for WWI and WWII, those were the remnants of fighting for control over the world from imperialist empires -- the opposite of humble nation states.
Britain, France, and co were colonial powers, whereas Germany and Italy were feeling left out. Those were the last bursts of those old "empires". When the colonies mostly died and the US took over uncontested primacy over global affairs from old Europe, the tensions in Europe died with the lowered stakes (and of course were revived by the US and USSR in the Cold War and tons of peripheral wars).
Lombardy voted to have more control regarding immigration and safety, Veneto to change their taxes and have more control in the "residuo fiscale" (what's left of taxes after all the administration costs has been covered). Neither is allowed by the concept of regional autonomy in Italy. Unfortunately, just like any other "independence" request these days, it's just a move to avoid helping poorer states and drawing a t…
While it’s possible that there’s some of that attitude in Catalonia, I’d point out that the other large, recent European independence movement in Scotland was emphatically not that. Brexit, comparable on some levels, is also different.
In reality, the reasons for independence/sescession movements gaining strength is complex and varies from place to place. That description seems a little reductive.