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Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

#21

Post by joeminichino »

bonzini wrote: post #12
daurnimator wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I see it, they need the threat of independence so that they aren't ignored. "we aren't looking at it now, but if you don't consider our tax proposal, we'll have no choice but to look at independance more seriously"

It's not a tax proposal, and it's depressing how many people voted thinking it was one. In Lombardy it's about a list of 23 special topics, which the Constitution says are legislated by both State and regions. The Constitution also says that regions can agree with the central government on getting exclusive legislation on some or all of these topics. There was no need even to have a referendum to start the process. A…

> yet 10 hours after we do not even know precisely how many people have voted.

hehe - and that's why this piece of news is on hacker news.

Re: Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

#22

Post by bonzini »

zakk wrote: post #18
bonzini wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you also acknowledge that such redistribution could not happen without a constitutional reform? (More remarks here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15531255 - disclaimer, I chose not to vote)

Yes, there are many problems, some of which could be solved without a Constitutional reform, some of which would need one, the redistribution being on of these. However, given that five Regions essentially don't engage in such redistribution due to their special status, and given that it is a widespread opinion that this special status is just for historical reasons -- making very little sense today -- I think that a…

I honestly doubt. The required supermajority is incredibly hard to achieve, and without it you would need a national referendum with no hope of passing.

The referendum might have had widespread _local_ support, but at the country level it's a whole different story. Why didn't Veneto get more autonomy (same as what they want to ask now) when the Lega Nord was part of the national government coalition?

Re: Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

#23

Post by khuey »

dmichulke wrote: post #9
gfiorav wrote: post #3

It’s just funny how the modern nationalist and xenofobe believe they’re “super cool and progressive”. Let’s never forget the horrors of a disassembled Europe, filled with nationalists and xenofobes.

The biggest horrors of mankind coincide with strong power monopolies, most obvious in dictatorships in big nation states. In other words: - There was rarely a democratic vote on "let's just kill X" with X being a religious, ethnic or whatever group. - There was rarely a small state committing horrible crimes of epic proportions. Partly because they don't have the means, partly because it's easier to flee small states…

Pol Pot may not have matched Mao/Stalin/Hitler/etc's death toll but he did kill 25% of Cambodia. The Rwandan genocide wiped out more than half of the Tutsis in the country. Small states are perfectly capable of genocide.

Re: Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

#24

Post by coldtea »

salqadri wrote: post #2

Umm; did they just contradict themselves? "We remain inside the Italian nation with more autonomy while Catalonia wants to become the 29th state of the European Union. We, no. Not for now." - So, they don't want to be seen like Catalonia, yet they say "Not for now" meaning they must be seen as such. I think the whole theory of giving certain regions extra autonomy while expecting that region to forever be part of the…

>I think the whole theory of giving certain regions extra autonomy while expecting that region to forever be part of the unified country has now been completely dumped.

And yet, that's exactly how it works in tons of places. Germany, Switzerland, heck, the US...

(Also: forever is a long time. Nothing lasts forever. In 100 years the landscape can be totally different).

Re: Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

#25

Post by achamayou »

dmichulke wrote: post #9
gfiorav wrote: post #3

It’s just funny how the modern nationalist and xenofobe believe they’re “super cool and progressive”. Let’s never forget the horrors of a disassembled Europe, filled with nationalists and xenofobes.

The biggest horrors of mankind coincide with strong power monopolies, most obvious in dictatorships in big nation states. In other words: - There was rarely a democratic vote on "let's just kill X" with X being a religious, ethnic or whatever group. - There was rarely a small state committing horrible crimes of epic proportions. Partly because they don't have the means, partly because it's easier to flee small states…

Small states obviously lack the resources but it doesn’t stop them from trying. See North Korea, Cambodia...

And if you think democratic small states won’t try to eliminate socially undesirable citizens, look at the history of eugenics in Switzerland.

I don’t think you are necessarily wrong, but there are definitely counter examples.

Re: Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

#26

Post by noisymemories »

zakk wrote: post #8

Venetian here, let me state a few facts about this: 1) The referendum in Veneto was supported by the Venetian section of all major parties, across all the political spectrum. 2) In Italy five regions have a far greater degree of autonomy for historical reasons. Many Comuni (city councils) voted to leave Veneto to join nearby Trentino Alto-Adige just for this far greater autonomy. The proponents of the referendum woul…

I'd love to comment more specifically, but as one of those people from the "poorer South" - by all means, do it. Those 5000€ have historically never been actually routed to the actual regions, anyway - mainly they get lost in a maze of entities and small time orgs that disappear just after they get the money, often with the implicit acknowledgement by politicians of both places.

In exchange, I have just one request - please ask your local MPs to stop saving the ass of our corrupted politicians who foster such behavior, instead of giving them parliamentary immunity or "institutional benefit of doubt" every time some anti-corruption or anti-mafia investigation gets them. It would be a nice start.

Re: Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

#27

Post by bl4ckm0r3 »

zakk wrote: post #8

Venetian here, let me state a few facts about this: 1) The referendum in Veneto was supported by the Venetian section of all major parties, across all the political spectrum. 2) In Italy five regions have a far greater degree of autonomy for historical reasons. Many Comuni (city councils) voted to leave Veneto to join nearby Trentino Alto-Adige just for this far greater autonomy. The proponents of the referendum woul…

1) Of course 2) Autonomy doesn't allow the type of independence you are looking for 3) It is very much, and for different reasons, but if your problem is redistribution of wealth on a national level, but not on a local it just means that you feel that southern Italy isn't Italy as much as Veneto is. Which isn't really a great thing in 2017 4) Rome and Naples have longer and definitely more impactful histories. we should be moving toward the future, instead of still grasping toward a few historical myths of the past (la serenissima fell on the 18th century).

It really sickens me to see people supporting segregation, separation and justify their ignorance with some historical fact that has no ties to the present.

For what I personally care, Veneto and Lombardia could become their own countries, but let's just call things with their names instead of finding silly justifications.

Re: Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

#28

Post by joeminichino »

bl4ckm0r3 wrote: post #13

Lombardy voted to have more control regarding immigration and safety, Veneto to change their taxes and have more control in the "residuo fiscale" (what's left of taxes after all the administration costs has been covered). Neither is allowed by the concept of regional autonomy in Italy. Unfortunately, just like any other "independence" request these days, it's just a move to avoid helping poorer states and drawing a t…

Honestly - how long more can Lombardy help the South. The freaking dogs on the street know about the Cassa Del Mezzogiorno. My father emigrated from Naples in the 60s and found a job in Lombardy, where he met my (Lombard) mother. I emigrated from Lombardy to Ireland. Not advocating emigration at all costs, but certainly governments of the last 50 years have advocated centralization and unfair redistribution of wealth to the detriment and frustration of the North. The South of Italy has so much potential (between UNESCO/POIs sites and wonderful landscape, tourism alone would get everybody employed year round), how it remained poor all these years is a mystery that goes beyond reductive punts on organized crime.

Re: Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

#29

Post by vampolo »

zakk wrote: post #8

Venetian here, let me state a few facts about this: 1) The referendum in Veneto was supported by the Venetian section of all major parties, across all the political spectrum. 2) In Italy five regions have a far greater degree of autonomy for historical reasons. Many Comuni (city councils) voted to leave Veneto to join nearby Trentino Alto-Adige just for this far greater autonomy. The proponents of the referendum woul…

It might feel empowering demanding taxes to be spent in the richer areas instead of helping poorer areas: Zaia, Governor of Veneto and member of the anti-Europe, anti-Euro, anti-italian nation Lega Nord party, promoted the referendum demanding that "taxes in Veneto should stay here, not helping Sicily".

It probably is, at first. But in an economy of different parties, who produces more needs some buyers to keep growing. If there are not enough buyers, overproduction and economical collapse will knock at the door. You can see this trend internationally: we seldom see a country be an outlier in the yearly growth. Either all countries grow, or all countries decline. It is the % that changes. We saw this during the 2008-2012 crisis in particular.

It is in the interest of the richest areas to help the poorest. By doing so not only the average quality of life of a country increases. With less economical inequalities between regions, the once poorer regions are buyers of goods of the once richer ones.

While you correctly associated Lombardia and Veneto to Germany, you forgot to mention that after the WWII, Germany went split politically and economically. When it got re-united in 1989-1991 East Germany was economically very diverse from the more developed West. Our fathers were wiser: instead of doing referendum demanding taxes to be withheld in the West, they demanded to be taxed to help the East. [source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_reunification#Cost_of_r... ] After 20 years those differences are still somewhat visible, yet they do not constitute a problem for Germany's growth and quality of life as a nation.

On the historical side it has been confirmed that 2/3 of the gold resources in Italy came from Regno delle due Sicilie [source: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regno_delle_Due_Sicilie in Patrimonio e finanza section ]. Those lands are today's most rural parts of Italy, yet contributed the most to the wealth of Italy as a nation.

I highly suggest a read on this last historical matter: Terroni by Pino Aprile. You might find a different point of view. [ https://www.amazon.com/Terroni-Ensure-Italians-Became-Southe... ]

Re: Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy'

#30

Post by bl4ckm0r3 »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #20
bl4ckm0r3 wrote: post #13

Lombardy voted to have more control regarding immigration and safety, Veneto to change their taxes and have more control in the "residuo fiscale" (what's left of taxes after all the administration costs has been covered). Neither is allowed by the concept of regional autonomy in Italy. Unfortunately, just like any other "independence" request these days, it's just a move to avoid helping poorer states and drawing a t…

Unfortunately, just like any other "independence" request these days, it's just a move to avoid helping poorer states While it’s possible that there’s some of that attitude in Catalonia, I’d point out that the other large, recent European independence movement in Scotland was emphatically not that. Brexit, comparable on some levels, is also different. In reality, the reasons for independence/sescession movements gain…

Scotland wanted to leave for economic independence (The national identity, which i respect, is always a political excuse). Brexit "let's get back european money and put them into nhs"?How is that going not the same?Oh the rest was about the immigrants.

Catalonia is literally the same, with just more political madness to it.

The reason behind all of this is that we are living in a harsh economic era, politics failed in providing a guidance and unity (since a while) and people don't feel empathy towards other side of their countries and blame them for their country defects, as if you could just point the finger to a specific region or group of people to blame them for the economic tragedies and corruption of modern politics.

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