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Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

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Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#151

I see all these articles about the average employee age at startups being 20-30, and how older developers face discrimination. Now this is 100% anecdotal, but I know a few 45+ year old developers and most of them are long-time corporate employees and are not really interested in the whole startup / bloggosphere / tech hype world. They have good stable jobs (think Perl, .NET, Java), and are mainly focused on their fam…

A few years ago, I was tech lead on a team doing the software for IPTV settop boxes. We were trying to grow the team out and not getting many good candidates for the position.

At one point the best candidate we had was a 60+ year old engineer with a background in compiler development. The skills he demonstrated on whiteboard coding and answering technical questions were not great but acceptable and we figured he should be able to transfer his knowledge to a new line of work.

When he started working he struggled to adapt. He had some health problems that included an organ transplant. After a few months in the role, the stress began to cause his body to reject the transplant.

It's clearl that hiring an older worker can have problems you won't likely see an a 20 year old. If I had to do it again, I would still give this candidate the chance. Every time.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can deliver a bunch of employees with 30 years of experience, who are overpaid. I can also deliver inexperienced employees who are underpaid.

I would argue based on their contribution to the bottom line, all tech workers, regardless of age, are significantly underpaid.

I would argue that cannot be true. If it were true, new companies would emerge that paid good employees more -- closer to their fair value.

(Also, most companies pay employees more than fair value, to discourage them from shirking.)

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#153
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those points are actually age discriminatory. For example, why assume that an older person should earn more than a younger person? Instead, it's better to think about paying people in proportion to the value that they provide to the company. I understand that many startups simply do not have the cash required to pay a high base salary. But, that's what equity compensation is for.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear: I'm not asking companies to pay older employees more. I'm simply pointing out that job-hopping and personal commitments make it likely that older employees will demand a higher salary, which smaller companies may be loath to give.

People used to say that having dark skin made it likely that someone was less skilled.

Both statements are prejudiced - pre-judging someone based on factors they cannot control.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#154
post #117

I'll be 40 in a few years but I give zero fucks about age discrimination. I've found that most people don't really care how old you are as long as you provide them value. But I don't work at a corporation so I guess that puts me in a slightly different position. Instead I record and sell video courses that teach modern development practices. All of that started after I was 30. I guess my point is there's plenty of wa…

You don't really have the opportunity to be discriminated against in the same way, so you probably don't really count.

Honestly I would say there's more chances of being discriminated against.

Instead of potentially dealing with HR reps or developers behind closed doors people are consuming my content out in the open and judging every video / piece of content.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#155
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have a kid and mortgage, but saving 60% of household post-tax income. We do what we can to stay lean, and have been doing that for the past decade. That means some sacrifices (e.g. no car(s)), but it's worth it for the peace of mind. Most people on this site are highly paid software engineers. If you have one or even two of those salaries but live like the mean or even median family, you will be able to save quite a…

Something like living without car is very difficult to pull off in suburban UK, I can’t even begin to imagine how one could do it in places like US or Australia. We have one car and already it limits our opportunities and the ones of our children so much that we’ve been discussing getting another for years. I’m sure I could save more (we do eat out a bit), but nowhere near 60% of income. You must be making waaaay mor…

The trick is to not live in the suburbs if you can avoid it. They're money-sucking black holes :) I know it hurts to hear, since having a house and a back yard is part of the western dream, or having grown up in that environment we even feel entitled to it. We imagine our children will be emotionally scarred if they don't get their backyard, but the truth is it reflects more on our own preference than our kids.

Long story short, if you make average decisions (as compared to people in your socioeconomic group), then you'll end up with average outcomes: ones of living pay-check to pay-check, and worrying about losing your job over stuff like age discrimination.

By the way, we make about $170k household income, in Northern Europe, which is definitely more than the median here, but the difference in post-tax income is less than you'd think, with a maximum tax-rate of 55%.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#156
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those points are actually age discriminatory. For example, why assume that an older person should earn more than a younger person? Instead, it's better to think about paying people in proportion to the value that they provide to the company. I understand that many startups simply do not have the cash required to pay a high base salary. But, that's what equity compensation is for.

The problem with that line of thinking is that it is extremely hard to measure the value that employees provide to the company. “Pay them what they are worth” sounds straightforward, but in reality you just can’t put a number on a candidate. The younger candidate might be inexperienced but a fast learner; the older candidate might have a lot of experience, but might be reluctant to adopt the companies coding practice…

>you do know that one of them expects a significantly higher salary.

How do you know that before you ask them?

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#157

I am 41 years old, still doing software development and enjoying it for the most part. I work in France. Actually I enjoy it better than I used to since I find myself much more productive and I make less bad design decisions than I used to. I code daily in Javascript (NodeJs), Java and from time to time in groovy, python and golang. Being able to switch from 1 language to another, deploying in different cloud platfor…

I agree with everything you said except for one thing: developer salaries later-on are not artificially kept down vs the value they create. The are artificially inflated when they are younger due to the scarcity of developers. This is why one can become a "Senior Developer" at 24 (such as I did) because the title is matched to the salary as opposed to the actual amount of experience it would take to be a "senior" any…

Is there an official definition chart for terms like junior, mid, senior? I keep hearing people sneer at the presumed miss-use of those terms as if everyone knew the official definitions. Last place I worked, senior was just the dev who's been there the longest.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#158

I am 41 years old, still doing software development and enjoying it for the most part. I work in France. Actually I enjoy it better than I used to since I find myself much more productive and I make less bad design decisions than I used to. I code daily in Javascript (NodeJs), Java and from time to time in groovy, python and golang. Being able to switch from 1 language to another, deploying in different cloud platfor…

Your last paragraph perfectly describes why as a French speaking American engineer I refuse to work in France even though I would love to live there. My salary in a flyover state in the US is 5X the best I could find in France.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#159
No one owes you anything in life.

Do not buy into the whole victimization of you based on your age. Resist this temptation.

The truth is that some "old" people are actually "weird" as are some really young people may be "annoying".

Of course the typical 60 year old will not fit in with a bunch of mid-20's people working on the next Godforsaken social sharing app.

DO NOT FALL FOR VICTIMIZATION TALK.

Everyone has a choice of how they save, invest, learn and who they associate with.

Do not like many companies and how they operate? Good, me neither.

Do not like drab catered lunches amd having to eat with assholes and listen to their vapid conversation? Good, I hate it too.

Don't want to work with know-it-all 20's kids (one that you probably were too at that age). Good, I don't either.

Therefore I don't.

I'm an independent software developer and stashing away as much of my money into Rental properties, Bitcoin, dividend producing investments and boring but safe bonds.

If you are worried about losing your job for ANY REASON, then it is your fault amd responsibility to fix your own emotion state:

- why did you take on a bigger mortgage than necessary?

- why did you spend 10's of thousands of dollars on a fancy car (or borrow the money for it)

- why did you not invest your money to work for you.

Instead of you working for money (by 40 you should be able to pull in minimum wage for sleeping and doing nothing).

But most people screwed their 20's and then maybe realized late 30's that there's a thing call Passive Income (as defines by tax code) and Investment Income.

We have a generation of men and women who made terrible life choices and now are shocked that they feel the need to continue working with young people.

Now the victimization brigade is coming to tell you that "It's not your fault you are being discriminated for your age".

Fuck yes it is. Why the hell are you working with assholes?

No one is preventing you from starting your own business, doing amazing work as an independent consultant or pursuing additional lines of income.

What did you think was going to happen when you got older? That's right, you will be treated as you treated older worker when you were young.

Heck, I just called my father "old man" for his birthday last night. Is that discrimination?

Yes.

Is it UNFAIR discrimination?

NO. He did live a longer life and is factually older. Who knows, I may not experience as many years as him. It is FAIR discrimination in a lot of cases.

Only unjust and unfair discrimination is what we should concern ourselves with. The article makes no attempt to articulate beyond a bunch of numbers cuz "discrimination"

You are not a victim.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with everything you said except for one thing: developer salaries later-on are not artificially kept down vs the value they create. The are artificially inflated when they are younger due to the scarcity of developers. This is why one can become a "Senior Developer" at 24 (such as I did) because the title is matched to the salary as opposed to the actual amount of experience it would take to be a "senior" any…

Is there an official definition chart for terms like junior, mid, senior? I keep hearing people sneer at the presumed miss-use of those terms as if everyone knew the official definitions. Last place I worked, senior was just the dev who's been there the longest.

I have asked this to, and often get told senior is "5+ years" with a specific tech stack, junior is usually specifically aimed at people with no/little experience in a dev role, and mid is anything in between. Not sure how well that generalizes to other geographic areas though.
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